Tuesday, February 22, 2011

Daughters Shaving Daddies - I Wish I Were Making This Up

Umm, watch this if you can stand it...

7 Reasons to Come to the 2011 Father and Daughter Retreat from Douglas Phillips on Vimeo.

Now, provided you didn't lose your lunch, and provided you've finished taking the mental and physical shower this most likely made you crave (I'd caution against attempting to scrub the eyeballs, no matter how strong the desire), is there anyone out there who'd like to argue with me that Vision Forum isn't a full-blown cult, with all of the assorted creepiness and weirdness of a full-blown cult?

How many expressions and adjectives could be applied here? The first that comes to mind is...

Ewwwwwwwwwww. ("Yuuuuuuck" is a close second)

Then, there's perverted, bizarre, and a host of others. Tea parties? Really? Even with the older girls? And the picnic lunches on the blankets look weird and contrived. To be honest, everything about the whole deal looks weird and contrived. But it reaches a whole other level of creepiness when the daughters start shaving their dads. I have to wonder what wonderful, bonding nuggets would await us in a Mother/Son retreat. Sons shaving their mother's legs? It's no less creepy than this. 

From where I sit, it seems to me that a daughter even desiring to go to this thing would serve as proof of very effective brainwashing and indoctrination. I'd think that only a young woman who has been ultra-sheltered and emotionally/informationally/doctrinally isolated could see anything appealing about attending this. Of course, in the patriarchal paradigm, if daddy says "Let's go" it isn't like the poor girl would have a choice but to "stay sweet", submissive, and act more than happy to go.

My message to those who may be considering attending...

WAKE UP!!! You're being brainwashed and grifted by these people while they're cleaning up at the bank!!! $625 dollars for dad and one daughter, and $205 for each additional female blessing - along with over $100 per night in taxes. Is it really worth this much to learn from Phillips, Botkin, and the rest how to be a manly-man of a father, pose for pictures as a manly-man should - as if you have an ongoing, festering bout with jock-itch, and just generally creep the rest of us out?

I mean, rose petals? Chamber quartet music? Victorian-era fantasy? Sheesh. Check out this quote from the VF "ministries" site concerning the Daddy/Daughter retreat...

"His most sacred duty is her protection and preservation from childhood to virtuous womanhood. He leads her, woos her, and wins her with a tenderness and affection unique to the bonds of father and daughter."

Oh, but there's more...

"She, in turn, looks to her father as a loving picture of leadership, of devotion, and of care. Her relationship with her father will help to define her view of the worth of a woman, the meaning of fulfillment and contentment, and her vision for virtue. When these relationships are realized and cultivated, the generational mission of the Christian family is secure.

Is it any wonder that Satan is on the prowl seeking to tear the hearts of daughters from their fathers, and driving wedges of indifference between them — fathers with no time for their little girls, and young ladies who have replaced the love of their fathers with the acceptance of peers and inappropriate romantic relationships?"

ETA: This whole thing IS an inappropriate romantic relationship!

Ugggh. Perverse. I'm telling ya, people, this crowd isn't very far at all from cyanide capsules and motherships (although they may prefer the mothership be submissive).

If you think the VF crowd isn't a cult, you desperately need to wake up.


  1. I think my husband might be afraid that my daughter would slip and hit his throat if she shaved him. Sick people these. Major sick.

  2. My answer to this video:

    Because no one can form lifetime bonds without the help of Doug! (And if that makes you think of something dirty, well good for you, you are koolaid-free!)

    (oh and if you miss the signup, because there's limited space...well, you're screwed.)

  3. The VF crowd is selling naive, gullible, and wounded people an illusion.

    It's ironic that their web ad for this retreat talks about daughters forming "inappropriate romantic relationships". This whole thing is an inappropriate romantic relationship. Spiritual and emotional incest.

  4. This is the single most disgusting thing I've ever seen.

    What makes these people think that this is a more appropriate relationship than the "sinful" (read: normal) ones that can exist between young men and women?

    Why is it okay for these girls to exist only surrogate wives/servants for their fathers, but not okay for these girls to simply hold another guy's hand?

    None of this is healthy and it borders on incestuous. God help the young women that go to this event and curse the fathers who push them into going.

  5. Are they actually insinuating that romantic relationships are inappropriate? Mayhap that's why the fathers are taking out their daughters and not their wives...

  6. Ok, my stomach couldn't handle that one. So beyond repulsive- EWW EWW EWWWW! For all the messed up things that happened to me in my childhood, at least I wasn't obligated to essentially sexually worship my father.

    You said it well. There is no end to the revulsion I feel....please pass the bleach!!

  7. As a girl looking at their catalog I was more interested in the boy toys, like the swords and stuff like that. My mother tried to order a sword for me from them and they WOULD NOT sell it to her because I was a girl.

  8. I think they should have the matriarchs there shaving their husbands. I bet you'll see a lot of razor's accidentally slipping...

  9. Yes, they promote romantic relationships with their daughters, but once they grow and enter the daughter ...er child-producing years, a woman's value drops considerably and she is no longer protected, but rather thrown under the bus for the sake of making babies (more daughters to have tea with?).

    Here is an article on Doug Phillip's outrageous stand on ectopic pregnancies.


  10. Oops. Sorry. Made a grave boo boo.
    I forgot to check the link on the blog I linked.
    That made it all rather anti-climatic.
    Let's just leave it at this.
    Doug Phillips doesn't believe in abortion for the sake of saving the life of the mother, even if the baby is going to die anyway as in the case of ectopic preganancies.
    I apologize again for sending you down a deadeand.

  11. $625????

    What part of "Beware of every form of greed" do they not understand?

    The conference should be called "How to Cultivate Codependency with Your Daughter and Make Doug Phillips Rich All At the Same Time!"

  12. Beyond creepy. Emotional incest!

  13. So many of these comments mirrored my thought. It's as if these men have little concubines. Shudder!

  14. To those of you who feel I've been too harsh in my assessment of this...

    I only hope I was harsh enough. Wrong is wrong, and will ever be wrong.

    This is wrong.

  15. Thanks for exposing this to the light Lewis! Last year two of my daughter's friends went with their dads. It is sad to see so many brainwashed into believing this stuff will somehow bring them closer to the Lord. This is not about the Lord at all but about man glorifying himself and his own little kingdom.

    Families involved in this need to wake up before they loose their wallets, their families and maybe even their souls. This stuff is man-made religion, nothing more.

  16. Shaving your dad? What if dad DOESN'T shave? Where does that leave you? And isn't that something the dad or the WIFE (aka MOM) should do? Shouldn't you as a daughter save that for your husband. That's kinda gross and weird and I would NEVER want to do that to my dad.

    Yikes, now I'm starting to question my desire to have ANY interaction or give ANY money to these people . . .

  17. I know two girls who have gone to a purity dance with their father and had some kind of ceremony where the dad puts a purity ring on the girl's finger, to ensure that she stays "pure" and leaves her heart safe with Dad. I didn't think anything could get weirder until I saw this. Why, people, why?? Is all this extra-Biblical rigmarole truly necessary? If a girl really holds her father in such high esteem, why doesn't she just stay celibate? Her heart is with her Dad anyway, and if he's the #1 person she's going to look up to for forever, why bother trying to find a #2? What man would settle for 2nd place? It's thinking like this that creates the type of rebellion they're trying so hard to prevent. Once that girl realizes that there are other great guys out there who AREN'T her dad, she's going to be gone for good. They'll be lucky she doesn't completely abandon EVERYTHING she's been taught -- including whatever good she might have absorbed.

    This is so discouraging and sad.

  18. I do agree that daughters learn what healthy man-woman relationships look like from their fathers. That said, it should be because they're watching their father and mother interact, not because Daddy is treating them as a minor-wife.

  19. I echo the above comments, but here's something that popped out at me right away: the token black families. Almost to prove a point, the pictures of families of color are intentionally displayed even though this group is clearly overwhelmingly white; the larger group shots prove that. And further into the slideshow: oops we ran out of pictures of nonwhite families, so let's show the same photos again, just so we can keep up appearances and convince everyone that we're not racist.

    Riiiiightt.. the Phillips think that "jive talk" is a PLAGUE.. yep, that's one diversity embracing bunch, sho nuff, word to mah mothaa!

  20. What you have seen in this video clip is just the tip of the iceberg . . .

    And Leah is right about the "jive talk." I heard him (Phillips) say it on one of his audio talks.

  21. I need brain bleach!

    The part that really stuck out to me is the "games" ....where the daughters are tied by their hands and feet to their daddies. Isn't that a true picture of what the P/QF/VF lifestyle is all about. Sad. Sick. Gross.

  22. This is so sick. Lewis you could not possible overdo the strong statement against this. It is an example of spiritual and emotional abuse/incest. I agree with the others who said this should be a husband/wife thing (without any subordination garbage) only. Yeah, good point, above...would boys be shaving legs or applying make-up at a mother-son banquet? I bet they don't even have mother-son banquets. If they did, I wonder what that would look like? Sons teaching moms things? After all, women can't teach men, etc. I am sure it would be brutal. Let's hope they don't think of mother-son banquets...another horrible money maker. This is all beyond description!!!!

  23. Makes you wish a major news network would get this story and run with it.

  24. As a mom and wife, I'm totally offended. Mothers have no place in their relationship paradigm. The emphasis on father/daughter relationships and father/son relationships is so unhealthy and wrong. And the only thing Mom is good for is producing more offspring. As a girl, if someone had showed this to me or my dad we both would have laughed it off as bizarre. What is WRONG with these people?!?!?

    You know what my husband does with his girls? He take them fishing. Or horseback riding. Or he lets them work in the shop or do reloading with him. Yesterday, he took our oldest with us to Les Schwab to get his truck fixed. She loved riding in Daddy's big truck and going to Burger King for lunch and talking his ear off the whole way there and back. He just includes them in his every-day life. And NOT to the exclusion of me. That's about as healthy and normal and Godly as you can get.

  25. "bonding"?? Bonding doesn't happen at contrived, fake, expensive conferences. Bonding happens when you are living life together, in every-day things. When Dad AND Mom include their kids in their lives, the good, the bad, the ugly. When parents teach by their example how to enjoy the good times and survive the bad. When families turn every-day happenings into adventures and the simple things in life are shared, revered, and enjoyed by all. You don't need $625 to effectively "bond" with your kids. You just need love, imagination, sincerity, and a willingness to have your life interrupted. Bonding is what happens when you are living life with a purpose. I hate the implications that VF has that says "you cannot have good relationships with you kids unless you buy our stuff and come to our conferences". Boy, are they wrong!

  26. Darcy, your points are excellent! What a great example your family is of true parenting, bonding, etc.!!!!!

    I read all these posts with a longing for what you all have. I am married to a fundamentalist and it breaks my heart to see some of the parenting that happens or fails to happen under my own roof.

  27. This is very disappointing, the amount of hate I see here from people I AGREE with, towards something that out of all the things Vision Forum does, is potentially the most inoffensive and helpful I have ever seen. Perhaps you have forgotten what it was like to be a little girl, and genuinely want to delight and be delighted in by your Dad? I can remember from years ago, how heartbroken my younger sisters were when we could not afford for Dad to take them to the "Daddy Daughter Dance" or a similar event, once a year. As a guy, I didn't really understand the appeal at the time, but for some reason, Dad seemed to be just as upset as they were that he couldn't take them, and he tried to make up for it in all sorts of little ways, a tea-party at home for example, just as he might take me camping in the backyard when we couldn't afford going to somewhere like Skyline Drive.

    Not ALL intimacy between a father and a daughter is bad, and although I certainly believe that what Vision Forum and their compatriots teach is both un-Biblical and wrong, that doesn't mean that every dad who brought his daughters there believed the same, much less was a pedophile! Good grief folks! Shaving yer Dad is a totally innocent and goofy activity, as are three-legged races, tea parties, and picnics! It shames me to see the Body of Christ spewing such poison in the face of something that was likely a very precious thing for many attending. When my Dad finally managed to save enough that he could afford to take off work and bring my sisters to a dance, they were over the MOON! It was like a dream come true for them, and yet here I see people actually calling for God to curse fathers they know NOTHING about! What if God DID curse them? I wouldn't wish that on the worst people in my life, and yet you call it down on men you have never met?

    The Emotional Purity movement, which I think started as something good, may have been turned into something mostly harmful and damaging to the Church, but that doesn't mean we should start a "Reverse Emotional Purity Movement" where lasses and their daddies can't go to a dance and goof off without being accused of incest! If there is one thing I know, it's that most Christians, even homeschooling Christians, have no idea how harmful Vision Forum is, to them, it's just one out of hundreds of choices on organizations to get a newsletter from, or to support. Many of those dads probably just thought of the dance as a sweet thing to do for their daughters. Some, on the other hand, may have gone above and beyond, knowing what the Botkins and CO. were up to, but took their daughters anyway, let them enjoy the experience, and then explained to them what was wrong with the teachings, and helped them grow stronger in Christ from it. From what I have heard, that is what my Dad did.

    All this is to say, shame on you! This much venom shouldn't be directed in such a personal manner at people you have never met, just from a trailer for a dance. Being right is no excuse for being hateful, we are the Body of Christ, we can do better!

    1. I completely agree. This father/daughter event is purely innocent. Only a filthy VILE mind COULD turn it into something so disgusting and evil. Pure HATEFULNESS and IGNORANCE. Jesus Christ was not hateful or ignorant. Who do you represent while spewing forth such poison? Why don't you just go to a private place and pray in secret and your father who sees in secret will hear you, instead of "preaching in the synagogue to be heard by man," where you already have your reward in full.

    2. I think my head just exploded trying to wrap my mind around your response here.

      This blog is not a prayer, so it need not be private. You condemn public preaching (which you contrast with prayer despite the fact that they are two separate things) and you do so IN SUPPORT OF a father-daughter retreat where ALL prayers and preaching are made public to "edify" these relationships.

      And on a completely different note, if my father ever announced his intention to "woo" me or instructed me to shave him for pleasure, I would vomit. The context of the phrases being used here is a romantic relationship, and these children are being taught to confuse romantic intimacy with parental love. The implications are horrifying.

    3. Well said Meg, well said!

    4. Einar, Thank you for posting your thoughts, I agree. I had a very healthy relationship with my Father, although I never shaved him, I don't see that as a sexual experience. I think maybe alot of the comments are having to do with wording, I think its more like the Fathers are learning how to earn the respect of their daughters, and I fully think respect for your father is very different from having sexual desire for your father.
      I have met Doug Philips and his wife and children, and I can't imagine how anyone could think that his point in doing this conference is to teach some perverted relationship between Father and Daughter.
      I'm left feeling sick after reading this article, how can so many people believe these twisted words, from someone who wasn't even at the conference?

    5. Anon 2:40...

      Pretty much everything Doug Phillips and Peripheral-Vision Forum teaches is perverted.

      If you see this kind of thing as normal and healthy, those teachings have perverted you. It's neither normal nor healthy. Most of the hits for this particular article come from people searching for porn. That should tell you something about daughters shaving daddies.

  28. Einar, in the context of the secular/egalitarian public school community in which I was raised, I would agree with you that all this could be rather harmless. In the context of the whole VF framework, however, I believe it is a very different can of worms. It may be true that some who attend do so in all innocence of motive, but it is likely, given the VF teachings, that there is more damage being done than not. I am surrounded by all this stuff though I don't believe in any of it, so I see and feel and hear the flavors of what it does to some women and girls (and males), so I think Lewis' venom, as well as the rest, is properly aimed and rightly so.

  29. Seems pricey to me, but the activities don't bother me. I am no expert on any of the teachings of the speakers, I do not agree with the over the top ideas of the Patriocentric movement, but there is no need to pendulum as this post does.

    This reveals more about all of you than it does about the Patriocentric movement.

    Get a grip.

  30. Einar, this is not a trailer for a dance, but for a seminar with an attendance fee of $625, which I'm sure represents a substantial profit for Vision Forum. I have never been even invited to a Christian seminar that dared to put that kind of price tag on itself. It's way over and above what it should cost. And that's greed, pure and simple, on the part of Vision Forum.

    I don't agree with saying "curse the fathers" who participate in this either-- and your point that many of them may be innocently participating without fully understanding the implications, is well taken. However. . .

    My father took me dancing when I was a young teen, too-- but he never made me choose between his love and the acceptance of my peers. In his book, I was welcome to have both, without conflict. Part of being a father is helping your children learn to use their own wings to fly free. This seminar is about tying girls to their daddies, and then to their daddy-substitute husbands, for the rest of their lives. It IS sick. I hope more fathers who fall for this, will come to their senses and let Christ alone be Christ to the daughters.

  31. I love it how some find rose petals, wedding music, wooing, and shaving (in daddy/daughter scenarios) harmless, and how some don't agree with VF or the patrios, know nothing about the cult-leader speakers and their teachings, but somehow know we've jumped into the opposite ditch, what with it being impossible to go beyond our position on daddy/daughter relationships, and despite all of the ambivalence and lack of knowledge, still feel compelled to leave a comment against what's written here.

    Call me crazy for noticing that kind of inconsistency.

    I'm sorry that some of you have made some poor choices to patronize VF functions. Your choices don't demand that I cease to take a very strong stand against them and ALL they represent, and I won't be "shamed" into softening my stance.

  32. Coming from people who teach that daughters need to be "daddy's helpmeets" among other strange and damaging things, this is worse than it may appear to an outsider. I see no venom in any of these posts...just people who have first-hand knowledge of these events, teachers, and the teachings they promote being very concerned and appalled. Of course no one is saying that the motives of dads who take their girls here are wrong. We are decrying the motives of the teachers that are making money off of this, that are telling dads that they will lose relationship with their daughters if they don't fit THEIR picture. You see these games as just harmless games. But I can assure you they are more then that. they are specifically created to promote the ideas that this group holds dear: blind obedience to fathers, being tied to fathers, serving fathers....in ways that are not healthy and that cause many, many damaging issues in the hearts of the daughters. This isn't just "hey, lets all go to dance". This is so, SO much more then that.

  33. ""All this is to say, shame on you! This much venom shouldn't be directed in such a personal manner at people you have never met, just from a trailer for a dance. Being right is no excuse for being hateful, we are the Body of Christ, we can do better!""


    BOTTOM LINE FOLKS, this is foreplay emotional INCEST leading up to PEDOPHILIA/INCEST.

    There is nothing 'kind of weird' or 'kind of cultish' or 'kind of wrong' here, oh HELL NO,

    this is a lot of grown pervert MEN taking a very clever manipulation tactic using scriptures/aka via spiritual abuse, to create a very climate Conducive and Supportive to one day, wives tolerating daddy playing hubby with daughter for her uh, training into Womanhood

    and any MORON IDIOT who can't See this, is just that, an Idiot. Daughter's Shaving their fathers, I don't even have to Watch the video, to See just how WARPED THIS PERVERSION IS,

    so, to the so called mamby pampy pedophile excusing calling evil good Christian NUTCASE, I say,

    call a spade a spade, this crap is pure EVIL and these men should be LOCKED UP, PROSECUTED FOR CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE, all there is to it.

    And the mother's need psychological Help, all there is to it. It is not NORMAL for fathers to be demanding their daughters to shave them, have relations with them THAT THEY SHOULD BE HAVING WITH THEIR 'WIVES', I mean, good grief, HOW STUPID HAVE WE BECOME?

    Even in conservative lens this is just pure insanity, to those who say it's venom to confront, I say to you, WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU? I know drug addicts with MORE SENSE,

    seriously, GET a grip, it violates NATURAL LAW, for crying out loud, all these groups are is abuse of religion, to NORMALIZE or attempt to NORMALIZE the adult man having relations with their daughters or other relatives, Pedophilia, in training,

    these men should be Locked up. All there is to it.


  34. These are the Same PERVERT LARRY FLINT WANNA BE PLAYHOUSE BOYS, who tell their wives, via videos, that if the man wants an 'orgy' she should sweetly recline,

    I mean COME ON, this is just Beyond ridiculous, any Secular person can see through their b.s. hype, these aren't Christians

    they are a group of horny old pervert men who like Criminals, are using religion, as a clever disguise to indoctrinate silly folks, into allowing for all sorts of deviant behavior, at Least in Secular society,

    they don't mask their perversions with Bible, and then to Top it off, claiming this crap is Holy! Good grief, I mean...I realize the polar shift is happening and earthquakes are a going off and all,

    but even the New Ager's, aren't this insane, at least they keep their perversions to consenting Adults--well exceptions to this rule of course but you get what I'm saying here--this just Defies all reasoning, it really does. Next thing you know, they'll be indoctrinating their flock into accepting of the 'thighing of toddlers' like they do in many sects of Islam,

    this is just Sick. And yes, I am NOT going to be nice, or civil, or polite towards this banality of evil--these young girls will be messed up for LIFE,

    it's like these jackass men are telling women, their own wives, to shut up while Daddy has some intimate time with his daughters so HE can prime them for their future husband, I mean, we Can't be serious here? How far does this garbage have to go before the supporters of, WAKE UP OUT OF THEIR STUPOR, I mean what,

    do they Drug your water or something???? Any God who demands you sacrifice your daughters [or sons for that matter] to the sexual or 'act out sexual' acts with their Parent or any other adult, is NOT a GOD you should be worshiping, at Least, you should be questioning,

    and the fact that so many of the members of these yes CULTS, C.U.L.T.S. that make the Moonies seem tame in comparison, I mean Charlie Manson must be laughing his ass off watching these videos on you tube, HE'd be Impressed! But the fact that so many in these Cults can't see just how down the slippery slope these teachings are, is proof beyond shadow of doubt,

    some folks have NO business, leading any group or teaching any doctrine--and why, religion, needs some kind of accountability, all there is to it--this crap is just pure unadulterated Fetish worship. Larry Flint wanna be's alright, with their playboy groomed bunny girls, all sweet and submissive,

    the harem of all harems, at least in Islam, the harems are full of slave women, not their OWN DAUGHTERS for crying out loud--and the harems in Islam are bad enough--but the Despicable thing about all this,

    is that this FILTH and yes it is FILTH, is being promoted in the name of Jesus Christ--they should get the sword--it's too bad, we Christians, don't handle matters, in the way the Jews would have, back in the day--because these Cults, need to be removed, to the outside of camp--they are pollution of the Worst kind. Next thing you know they'll be propping up altars to sacrifice infants on for some empowerment of de 'preacher man' or some crap, oh Wait,

    they are Already doing that, beating children to death.

    The State, needs to Step in here, and in a Big way--just like with the Waco Cult. And I don't normally like the State, in fact hate the police state, but these Creeps, are just begging for it--maybe though, that's part of the police state, using these Thugs as the ammo to piss enough people, sane folks, off to demand an end
    to religion. Ever think about that?


  35. LOL sorry Lewis, you know I just, I don't know, when I read some Bimbo [sorry but gotta say it] who has the Gall to say, we shouldn't have venom to grown MEN who are having little girl shave them,

    I mean, YUCK, is an understatement, and well I'm not one to hold back, and I'm willing to Bet money, these men, a majority of them, probably are jerking off to child porn, are pedophiles in a cover, make No mistake about it--no Wonder they hide their rituals behind rigid closed doors, not surprising in the least,

    any Secular non-Christian, especially if they are exposed to the more ugly fetish justifications of the world, could see Right through these men/teachings, it's pretty darn transparent,

    I think what kind of just, makes me shake my head, is how so many Christians, can sit around and debate the 'merits' of whether or not these behaviors are Holy or Christ like, I mean,

    LOL WTF, seriously, I see crap like this and I think, alright Jesus, uh, I think I will go hand with the Mary Jane folks, at least, even when high, they can think straight!

    It sure does, explain why more and more folks, are signing up, on that Ex Christian blog--sad really, it's just decadence beyond belief. You Know it's bad,

    when the Secular/non believers, have more Moral aptitude, and guts to confront evil--than the very Christians, who Should be, the light of the world.

    Lewis, you're one of a few, you know that right? Men that is, that is loudly confronting this nonsense...my hat's off to you, you got a real war on your hands. Hang in there--to the many of you who have left this perversion called Fetish Christianity [that they should just don the toga's and dance around the bull, lol] hang in there--all I can say, you're better off being Away from this,

    and your children, even more so.

    Peace out,


  36. Shame on YOU, Einar.

    I do remember being a little girl taught to be the junior wife of my father. I remember him asserting complete ownership over me and my body ("I have the right to see you naked whenever I want to make sure you're developing properly, because I'm your father"). I remember the church egging him on, telling me to submit to him, to prepare his meals, to go on "dates" with him when I wasn't allowed to date anybody else, to "model" my future romantic relationship with my husband by acting like Daddy's little wife.

    You know how that made me feel? Worthless. Dirty. Ashamed. Scared. I felt like nobody could protect me from my father's sexual abuse because they believed he had absolute power over my mind, heart and body at all times. I felt hopeless about my future because my father preferred me over my mother and I could expect my husband to prefer my own daughter over me when I grew up. I felt guilty because I was taught that having crushes on boys was wrong, yet I was supposed to cultivate a romantic heart by treating my dad the way I would treat a boyfriend.

    As an adult, I can tell you my heart still breaks with the shame and helplessness I felt as a child. I have no relationship with my father because he got belligerent when I tried to tell him that I was an adult and could choose my own mate. I had to leave home because he was violent. Your doctrines offered me no protection from this! Everyone at church told me constantly that in my deepest heart of hearts I must want a loving bond with my daddy, and none of them could hear me crying out for someone to save me from him!

    Your doctrine is vile, perverse, incestuous and sinful (in every sense of the word). You should repent for the destruction you have wrought in the lives of young women.

  37. AMEN!!!!!! JaneDoeThreads and previous Anonymous!!!!

  38. I'm troubled that people who "know better" than the VF poison would still take their children to something like this - by default, lining the pockets of the poison distributors and funding their efforts.

    I don't think this kind of sickness is something that people can afford to be apathetic or ambivalent about.

  39. Wow, I guess I didn't make my stance clear, I COMPLETELY disagree with VF, Baylyblog, and most other Patriocentric sites. My point was in no way to defend them, but to point out how your hurt our cause when you behave in this manner, but obviously, such advice will not be heard here.

    I hope that anyone seeking to leave Patriocentricity and it's chains, NEVER sees this post, it's comments, or perhaps even the entire site, lest everything they think they know be proved right, and they be scared by your foulness into remaining a slave the rest of their life.

  40. Einar, if you felt as strongly about these things as we do, would you NOT speak against it so vehemently? I can only think that you somehow do not see the seriousness of all this. Jesus used terms like whitewashed sepulchers, and evil and vile generation about things He felt strongly about...would you have chastised Him as well?

  41. Anonymous 6:25 -
    Please do not make unfounded assumptions that Einar's doctrine lines up on any point with that of patriocentricity. I have been told on patriocentric blogs that I am personally leading people to hell. As far as I can tell, you are accusing Einar of holding the same doctrinal ideas that led to your abuse: I do not believe that you have any reason to assume this.

    I personally know Einar and I can assure you that patriocentricity is an issue that I have made rather near to his heart. Can you [addressing everyone here, now] please believe me when I say that he decries patriocentricity, and probably only differs with you on the way in which he believes we should fight it?
    As a survivor of patriocentric views, I hope my words have some credence here.

    Einar's last comment is unfortunately well-founded. If anyone still even slightly in the grip of patriocentricity were to read some of the comments here, I think they are more likely to be confirmed in their ideas than not.

    I confess I am torn on this. I think that patriocentricity is one of the greatest evils of the church in recent days, and I personally want to fight it on all occasions and in all ways. But I think there is, there must be, a way to respond to it that will not further alienate those sisters and brothers still trapped by legalism.

  42. So, Bethany and Einar, how would you prefer to have seen this issue addressed AND expressed? I am not Anonymous 6:25 but I share the views.

  43. Einar...You're welcome to avoid this blog if it offends you so deeply. I don't foresee anything here changing.

  44. Bethany...Regardless of Einar's views on patriocentricity, it isn't an assumption on anyone's part to see that he was most certainly defending something most grounded adults see as sickening and unhealthy. THAT is the source of his issue with this blog. I don't think it's genuine of him to suggest that it's my overall approach to the issues.

    It's also dangerous to assume how the general public, and the patrio crowd, responds to this blog and the way I present the issues. I don't claim to have perfected anything here, but no one, outside of me and those who correspond with me, knows the details of my personal interactions with readers both in and out of patriarchy.

  45. What...? Are they crazy...or are we the ones who are crazy. People are paying good money to attend this function. Why? A father can spend plenty of time with his daughters for FREE. They can bond with them for FREE.

    I think it is very sexy for a WIFE to shave her husband. But...I'm a bit disturbed at the thought of a daughter shaving a "healthy" father. There are so many ways to honor our earthly fathers. But this is kind of pushing things in a creepy way. I have seen daughters shave fathers who are ill.

    I noticed Voddie Baucom. Wonder if his daughter Jasmine, shaves him...?

  46. I am not always sure how I myself should address patriocentricity. I'm personally often inclined to behave in the same way that I warn others against.
    I do think that we should be focusing less on some of the outward manifestations of patriocentricity [dresses-only, no-college, family-integrated church] and more on the deeper and very troubling issues behind them. [By the way, Lewis, I'm not picking at this post in particular, more just some trends I'm seeing in others' and my own writing.]
    You are right, I don't know the correspondence you've had with readers, and I do trust that you are doing your best to both free and avenge the captives.

    My concern with this post and some of the comments is that it is almost impossible for an 'outsider' who's not familiar with patriocentricity, or indeed for someone IN patriocentricity, to see what we find so deeply revolting. To be honest, this seems to me one of the more innocent things put forth by VF. I do not think that it is in any way a prelude to incest, emotional or physical, for most families.
    But on the other hand, I [and most of the other commenters here] am painfully familiar with the views that will be espoused at this event [just the sight of the Botkins tells me all I need to know]. And so, for us, everything seems terribly like abuse.

    I think we are almost doing the same thing that patriocentrists do: believing that a viewpoint is wrong, then looking at all the outward manifestations of that viewpoint and saying 'Aha! That woman is attending college. She must be a Marxist intent on feminizing America' [fill in your favorite patrio phrase].
    I KNOW that I do the exact same thing, and I object to it on my own account and when I see it in other opponents of patriocentricity. 'Look! That girl has decided college is not the best choice for her. She thinks I am a feminist and am headed for hell. She probably thinks the Botkin girls are divinely inspired.'

    This is less coherent than I would like. I apologize for the fact that I can't fully express the disagreements I have with the way some views are expressed here.

  47. So, let me see if I'm hearing this right, WE should tip-pie toe around this incestuous priming garbage Lest we 'offend' some sensibilities or cause fear in the hearts of those who Might have some common sense or dissonance to actually Question the cult? Am I hearing this right?

    Well uh, gee, duh, OK then, I suppose we should take that Same logic, and not protest, when Egypt, if they proceed with the threats of wiping Israel off the map, and simply just have dialogue while another Holocaust happens, cuzz we don't wanna offend,

    or, maybe, we can take that Same logic, and oh my gosh, in case we Offend the sensibilities of those few pro-sex lobbyists, we should Never demand penalties for traffickers who sell/and gang rape and force thousands of girls into sex slavery, because IF we get Too vocal, Too insistent on actually DOING SOMETHING, to end evil,

    we might cause one of the young women, if somehow she can, to NOT seek help? I mean, where do you Draw the line, seriously? HOW much evil, are you willing to passively allow to go on, unhindered, un-challenged WHILE THE EVIL LORDS RAKE IN THE BIG BUCKS, let's not forget That little gem, because God forbid, you Might offend someone?

    Good grief, I think the liberal relativist crap has actually infiltrated the minds of the Christian right as well--towards their own, kind of tragic really.
    As for

    Venom, na, not venom, get it right--I prefer, a nice group of Feds, with Child Protective Services, with some nice little handcuffs, for these types--forget the play of words here,

    and some nice cozy Jail cells, right next to brotha of the hood, who let's say, his sister was molested and he has a real distaste for white privilege and pedophiles to boot.

    Why? Because this isn't just about daughter's shaving men, though That's bad enough, this is about grown men marching their naked daughters doing period checks--what in Iran is called Moral Police, except here it's big ole daddy with the assistance and support of big ole brother pulpit pimp $$$$ industry, and a big Whoppin $$$ industry at That, millions in sales actually, last I checked. This is about grown men telling women, daughters, that if ole hubby wants to have a threesome or orgy, that SHE should submit though decline and stay SWEET about it, always worshiping his emperor pervert ass lest she be deviating from the scriptures They cherry picked, knowing Full well,

    many women will simply submit, especially if ole hubby enforces his demands with the Bible with Fist. This is about grown men and some very sick women, who teach parents to Beat their infants...lest they become strong willed,

    HOW MUCH MORE? And you say, to say truth, to confront without playing around is Venom? That it might scare women into Not leaving

    WTF, seriously, you cannot be Serious? These women aren't leaving NOW, so what, how many more daughters and women have to be scarred, for life, because we might Scare one? That's like saying to a police officer not to Shoot someone aiming a gun at them because they might Scare the victim in the car,

    NO way--you know, I might not be some goodie two shoe submissive Christian [and right now kind of glad I'm not], and it's not that I want to scare anyone,

    but dangit, this isn't some minor offense 'do not dance cuzz music is evil' dogma we're talking about here, this is REAL ABUSE BEING DONE USING CULT USE OF SCRIPTURE

    so if it Offends, too dang bad, maybe if some people GREW SOME BALLS AND ACTUALLY STOOD OPPOSED TO THE DEVIL




  48. but no, instead we have tea and scones and go boohoo over long diatribes of web discourses, discussing the merits of good/vs/evil, while the babies are Crucified, of course now, all the while going Rah Rah to the good ole political flag waving WAR boys, I mean COME ON--HYPOCRITE MUCH? you know thousands of Christians had to flee Iraq, many girls raped, but that didn't Stop the numerous right wing Cheerleaders for Jesus now did it? But dare NOT stand against these folks, no, that would be Venom!--someone needs to have the Courage to stand up to these morons to their FACE--and Mean it,

    the Reason these Cults are so strong and growing today, is because GOOD PEOPLE DID NOTHING,

    well I won't, do nothing, or not say nothing. To the women who are scared, STOP BEING AFRAID--YOU HAVE SUPPORT, FOLLOW YOUR INSTINCTS, GOD GAVE THEM TO YOU, THAT THING CALLED A BRAIN, FOR A REASON,

    it's NOT the gift of the devil--the Devil, is that Pimp cracking $$$ thug Quack behind the pulpit that is raking in the doe aiding men in their abuse and incest and if it Isn't confronted, that Incest, now emotional, I guarantee you, will turn physical...everyone Knows it, so let's just call it like it is. If we can't, then we need to just shelve the Bible, hell shelve morality, and just stick our heads in the sand, and dump the whole shabang.

    No wonder the church is in the Mess they are in.


  49. Bethany...You've expressed yourself very well. Being that you come out of a patrio background, your view of all of this DOES have particular and unique merit. I don't dismiss that at all. I always welcome your voice here, and you'll always have a platform to speak here.

    That said, just in this string of comments there are people both in and out of patriocentricity. Most of the comments come from women who've experienced it firsthand, a couple come from women still in it and struggling with it's issues. Some of the comments come from Christians with a more fundamental view of things. Others from Christians with a more liberal view. Some from people who have no firsthand experience with patriarchy. The response from practically all, however, is the same regarding the VF daddy/daughter retreat...It's sickening and unhealthy. I can see NO good that can come from it. I think both insiders and outsiders have reached a consensus on that.

    I think it would benefit people like Einar and Bard to know the issues and situations quite a bit better before they join the fray and antagonize (intentionally or otherwise) people who have survived it.

  50. Lewis I beg to differ, there isn't a woman here who hasn't had experience with patriarchy, and numerous, such as myself, have had Ritual Abuse in Secular/occult type, of patri-center systems/including some that operate under the umbrella of 'goddess' cults, so, from That perspective, and why Yes I am very Vocal and militant on this issue,

    we Do see far more dangers, of these Patterns of teachings, that don't operate in a kind of vacuum, they Will spread, not only that, they will Increase in their very sinister sugar coated appeal--trapping far more very young victims in their clasp. This isn't simply about bad doctrine, IF that were the case, I wouldn't be mouthing too much--I may not Agree with many of the doctrines/beliefs out there but they do not present a real threat to the well being and safety to most/particularly children/girls,

    These however, go way beyond just doctrinal differences. This is a cult movement that is hardly Christian [no matter how much they wrap it up in Mozart with Victorian concepts and a few cherry picked scriptures], oh no, this, and I can vouch for this, is simply a clever ruse, of older Pagan Ritual Abuse type of cults that are paraded behind a mask of Christianese language, a Revival of the cults of old [Rome, Greece, you name it, take your pick], and the real danger is that this increase of Pagan temple rites isn't just in these ultra-patri groups, they are more and more being slowly introduced into the Mainstream churches. I've seen it,

    when those of us, who have experience with the occult/ritual abuse/sexual abuse/prostitution and HOW that works, can SEE the same identical types of mental psychology being applied, then People had better take serious notice. There is a CONSISTENT, PATTERN, OF DOCTRINES that are being slowly introduced with Pimp like controls over sex workers, how they work, through the use of language, enforcement through learned debasement, sexual loss of autonomy, the luring with love bombs/or gifts, the lure with femininity as the sexual power over men, etc., a common tactic pimps-occult-pimps use, the whole divine union via sexual submission/acting out/sub to dom especially, and WE see these Same training techniques used in Porn, used in Prostitution and used in Cult/temple prostitution, etc., they are one in the same--and BOTH produce major profit--because profit is truly the ends on the backs of women and children. We could say it's just lust, however when there is a stratified SYSTEM of a form of business/via sales of said indoctrinations going on, THEN we're looking at a whole different labyrinth at work here. Again, my objection isn't the one or two odd eccentricities being played out, oh no, but a pattern of consistent doctrines being taught TO WOMEN, TO GIRLS, across the entire board, from wives submitting to bdsm or what they term as discipline, it's bdsm, let's not sugar coat it, to wives being told to sweetly decline orgies and we know the subtle message there, Especially with the after speak of 'well if she submits she won't be held accountable and that clever use of manipulation leaving plenty of lee way to the men to force via violence/psychological terror controls' to the beating of children/hindering free thought/critical ability to question any authority including any that may be trying to rape them, etc., to strict ownership/rigid controls on compound like environments--Yea, I mean,


  51. it's obvious what we are dealing with here....we aren't seeing young boys being filmed doing full massages of Mommy on clip now are we? You know why, they'd have those women lynched and screaming Jezebel while they impaled them for polluting the young boys--so Why is this, acceptable for young girls?

    These are nothing more than harems in training--cult like harems, the Dangerous thing that I don't think many are taking into account, is the Power of Money involved in this--this is how child porn rings work, child pedophile rings work,

    so, yea...I see red flags Screaming--on this one, look it's not like girls don't occasionally have a tea party with daddy or maybe even shave his face with mommy, that's One thing--this is something far more, beneath the surface, and Across the board, that is becoming more and more occult like. All they need, is the symbol of a goat, and they got it down pat.


  52. The thing is this-- watching the video, there are parts of it that do seem sweet and fun. Three-legged races are traditional and harmless. Having a special picnic with dad, or even a tea party with dad, is a fun thing for young children. But combine that with VF's teachings about the dad "wooing" his little girl-- and her looking to him alone for fulfillment and contentment-- add the shaving business (I don't shave my husband, or clip his toenails, or brush his teeth for him either. To me, all that is demeaning. I'm a wife, not a personal attendant! But to teach a daughter to shave daddy is to teach her that her role, now and in the future, is to serve a man-- doing for him what he could and should be doing for himself. That's called "enabling," as I learned when recovering from codependency in my own life. Never will we teach our daughter to enable)and it seems that the innocent bits are there to mask what you're really getting if you let them bilk you out of $600-1000 (not counting airfare!) to go to this conference.

    Look at the games. The're all about daughters being in traditional roles. Tea parties are fine if they're mixed with rock climbing (dads should urge their daughters to climb their highest!) or horseback riding (dads and daughters could ride out into the woods together and bond as two human beings, not ALWAYS leader and subordinate!) But look at the games they do show-- where the daughters are blindfolded and have to obey dad's every word in complete dependence on him-- and you've got the squashing of young girls' burgeoning independence. It may look innocent to an outsider-- but that's all the more reason why Lewis should warn against it. There's poison in that mix.

  53. PS. I can see how a dad or daughter who went to this conference could be upset and appalled at the words "emotional incest" -- I'm sure that was not what they thought they were doing-- but intentional or not, that sure is what this conference seems to be all about-- cultivating unhealthy emotional dependence, keeping daughters forever subordinate, teaching them that serving men is their rightful place, and making dad into an idol in their lives.

    Maybe some who might visit here might end up questioning, a little bit, what they've been involved in.

    I know that different blogs have different approaches. Lewis' approach may not help everyone. Some people may not want to read it, and that's ok too. But I think there are probably some for whom Lewis' voice is exactly what they need to hear-- the astringent that cuts through the "old oil" pouring out of places like VF.

  54. PPS. To those whose marriages include wives shaving husbands-- if you both enjoy it and neither one feels demeaned, by all means, shave away! But it's not for me. Not coming from where I come from. And my hubby gets that.

    But I don't think impressionable little girls should be shaving their daddies. No matter how innocent the daddy's intentions.

  55. I find it insulting, as someone who is still on the way out of this patriocentric crap, that some guys would come on here and be upset with having this stuff called out. It must be their entitled male parts trying to assert themselves.

  56. Thank you!! It's creeped me out since I first learned of it. [But then Elsie Dinsmore kissing her icky Dad made me wretch too.] Equally creepy is "serving Daddy" in other ways as a piece of home-grown arm candy. You might be interested in my post on this http://hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot.com/2010/03/hopewells-review-of-return-of-daughters.html

  57. ..this goes beyond daddy/daughter dances...these are full-blown daddy/daughter dates. I wonder, where are the moms in all of this?! It's sick!

  58. Those were my thoughts as well, Nicole. It's father/son this and father/daughter that... while mom stays home cooking and cleaning and babymaking. I mean, honestly, I have a great relationship with my dad. But the thought of spending $1000+ for this just sickens me.

    Sure, the games/activities may not be bad in and of themselves, but it's the context that makes all the difference. Like, wearing headcoverings is not bad in and of itself, but if you think that you have to wear a headcovering in order to be saved, then you have a problem. (then say everyone else should wear headcoverings and sell them for $40 a pop and up)

  59. My experience with the patrtriocentric teachings was fairly minor compared to many, and yet I still have huge struggles. When I decided I wanted to date a godly young man that my parents just didn't want for me, they told me that my heart must belong to my father. Even though my dad has never, ever physically abused me in any way, just the thought of some idea that my heart must belong to him...just that idea being presented to me was absolutely revolting and has seriously hurt our relationship. It guilt-tripped me and at the same time made me want to run from him. Just that one statement..."Your heart belong to your father until marriage..."...was very damaging, very hurtful, and the picture of my parents sitting there telling me that is permanently seared in my mind. There were many other things they said (that came directly out of these patriocentric, courtship teachings) that damaged our relationship, but that particular statement...was so, so damaging. It just made me feel sick. I was revolted and scared, even though my dad has never hurt me and never would.

    And I will firmly say...I am not hating my parents for saying these things. They honestly don't yet know that such teachings are wrong. It is not hateful to stand for the truth. I'm not going to cuss with socially unacceptable words at someone who teaches these things or tell them I hate them or have a hateful attitude...that is not right...but, I hate their TEACHINGS with every ounce of my being. There is a difference between hating the person...and hating the false doctrine. Taking a stand against false doctrine is not hateful. If it is, then Jesus was hateful and we should just renounce our Christianity.

  60. Joanna Marie, I very much appreciate what you said, and I think it's at the heart of why this has been a divisive post, because so many of these activities do seem harmless and, taken alone, ARE harmless. It's the same reason why I used to detest the Vision Forum catalog....most of it was harmless but if you know the CONTEXT, the underlying assumptions behind it, then you hardly think it's innocent anymore.

  61. I am lit bit scary now by thinking about this.

  62. The bit that really weirds me out is where it advertises teaching the daughter to be in relationship with her father and to avoid "inappropriate romantic relationships." There are girls in that video who are obviously old enough to be exploring a real romantic relationship with someone their own age and, um, not related to them. Romantic relationships are a part of normal development. Anyone who says different is selling some very creepy views. Even if some of the games/activities are harmless, it's mixed with pure poison.

  63. Exactly, Esther. It's not just a father/daughter retreat, it's based around fathers "wooing" their daughters (like how creepy is that??!)

    They are just games, but the messages behind them are utter submission and fathers holding a daughters heart until her wedding day. (why would you want to marry someone you're not in love with??)

    I mean, their "guard your heart; give it to your dad" is the creepiest, most inappropriate relationship ever! Seriously... how is that NOT inappropriate?

    And total stereotyping of girls. ALL girls only want to be moms, play dress up and have tea. Like my brother in law said... it's like they are training them to mentally be six years old their whole lives. Yet turning them into "little moms" at the same time.

  64. Uhm, excuse me, but nobody else shaves me. Not even my wife. :)

  65. I was in a relationship with a very abusive man who insisted that I shave him. Due to this, it seems very pervy and kinky to me, and totally inappropriate for fathers and daughters. Excuse me now because I have to go vomit!!!!!

  66. Hi, Lewis! I am a former IFB, horribly abused and controlled preacher's daughter who has been to hell and back. I went to an IFB school, went to PCC for four years and have been in a controlling, abusive IFB church for eight years and was married to a controlling IFB husband, who so gloriously changed and snatched me up out of the mess so we could start over again. In fact, he initiated the whole journey we are now on. I left the MESS kicking and screaming...can you imagine...that is how bad it was. My controlling husband was removing ME from all of this and I was fighting him and saying NO! And now I could die not to know this blessed freedom in Christ...the real Jesus has stepped forward...I found Him under the layers of crap, mess, control, hatred, and pain. He IS there under all that...my mind was so many people's play ground. I have been awakened by your writings and you have been an absolute breath of fresh air...you validate all my pain instead of just try to make me for get it all. THANK YOU! You are being used, Lewis, you are being loved, Lewis, and you are filled with the true and living Spirit of God. Shed the light, open doors and set the captives free, Lewis...because that is what you are doing and that is what you will do. Don't let anyone tell you other wise! Keep hearing from God himself, no one else and post the truth...because people Jesus came to set us free and be our truth! Shed the light. I'm all lit up and helped and the healing process is beginning, and in part, because of your brave stance. I also am partnering with you to fight against control, manipulation and fear-mongering with the realms of Christianity...all this from a Jesus-loving, Spirit-filled, homeschooling, five kid helping, married woman who wants to be FREE and wants the TRUTH! Thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you, God, that He made you. I have just started my own blog and you will need to strap in and hold on because what I am about to divulge is sickening and shocking and will make you fall down. Get ready. And my only hope is that I could help someone heal from the tragedy of control, that I also need to still get over myself. Here it be, just the starting point, the process just beginning...I would be honored if you followed me and I will be waiting in the wings for your next post.

    Deborah Paul

  67. "t's like they are training them to mentally be six years old their whole lives"

    They ARE doing that. No way would they be able to control a woman who could think like an educated adult!

  68. I have definitely been where those girls are, and I know how disgusting it is. My first purchase of more than a couple dollars was to buy the CDs from the VF father/daughter retreat. I listened to them over and over. I tried sooooo hard to live as that perfect daughter. At that point in my life, I desperately wanted my father's approval, and was just never good enough. Vision Forum basically teaches that if a daughter is good enough, her father will change however he needs to for her to be fulfilled and happy.

    Honestly, I wound up living more for Doug Phillips' approval - though I will probably never meet him. It was like having a crush on him. So instead of being allowed to have a crush on a boy my own age, I was supposed to have a crush on my dad, and actually had a crush on a married man I would never meet. If that isn't messed up, I don't know what is, but anyway. I remember vacuuming the floor and listening to those CDs on a walkman and hoping that maybe, just maybe, if I kept the house clean enough, did everything dad wanted me to do enough, that someday I would be the one Doug was praising as an amazing daughter - as he was doing with some girl named Amber. Yes, I still remember her name.

    Now I won't even let anyone listen to those CDs. I keep them for two reasons. First to remind myself of where I was and how far I have come, and second to remind myself how very crazy VF/patrio teachings are and to have a copy so if I ever need proof of what Doug said, I can find it.

    Oh, and shaving isn't the extent of the slave-like things a daughter not only could if she wants to - but MUST do for her father. On one of those CDs Doug said something to the effect of a daughter helping her father included rubbing his feet. He followed it up with "Yes, it absolutely does." or something like that. He was dead serious - not being funny, or at all recognizing that it might be an awkward-at-best thing for a daughter to have to do for her father.

    And don't even get me started on the fact that he never ever mentions doing stuff to make your wife feel better when she is pregnant time after time after time. Why couldn't he mention that maybe the husband should rub his wife's feet or back after a long day cooking, cleaning, raising HIS kids, and carrying HIS child?

    ~Annie Oakley

  69. Anonymous 11:25 p.m.: that is so hideous! I am so glad you got out of it all! I only wish you could have had a much better childhood experience in that regard!! I wonder how all the wives of these men comment on all this? What are some of their honest thoughts?

    (another anonymous)

  70. That's the thing, Anon 12:06, they aren't ALLOWED to share their honest thoughts. They are striving for the look of perfection just as much as anyone else, perhaps even more, because in many cases the mother is the main one on whom it all falls. If she's not the "perfect, loving, servantlike, submissive, doormat, sex goddess" wife, then the whole family loses its credibility! :-P

  71. Yep, what Joanna said.

    Lewis is one of the ones who has helped me get out. It was actually a slow process. The ppl who helped me at first, I can hardly stand to listen to now. The ppl who help me now/recently I would have freaked out at the things they said if I had heard them back then. So Lewis definitely has his place in this process. For some it may be only in the later stages of exiting the cult. However, there were times when I heard ppl against the cult when I was in it and at the time thought they were crazy, but later - when I was ready to think for myself - their words came back to my mind and helped me tremendously.

    Keep up the good work, Lewis. On behalf of all of us - even those patrio daughters who hate your guts right now - I thank you!

    ~Annie Oakley

  72. I give a big hearty amen to Annie Oakley's ending statement of her blog post.

  73. Vision Forum is encouraging fathers to replace GOD in the lives of daughters? Ultimately they are promoting idolatry in the form of men replacing God in the lives of women. SICK.

  74. When I was a teen, my mum got some CD about fathers and daughters from Vision Forum. It was a supposed fairytale about a maiden who chases after things of the world like guys, fun, etc. and eventually is saved by a knight in white armor who turns out to be her father. My dad is not generally the demanding type and generally leaves me alone in favor of my brothers (I don't think either of my parents knew what to do with a girl, lol), but the message left him in tears (while I was like =| ) because of the emotional appeal. And I suppose any person and father wants respect and appreciation, and certainly this message played on that. Funnily enough, my life is sorta following the pattern of that story except I didn't need to leave home to get involved in a secret sexually, emotionally abusive relationship. But the white knight turned out to be God in my case.

  75. Anonymous...I'm very sorry about what you suffered.

  76. I stumbled on this blog and am appalled at the accusations made about VF and specifically about the F/D Retreat. I have attended 2 of these events as well as the VF Father-Son retreat in Colorado. While I may share some of your disagreements w VFs message, to accuse those of us who attend these events of incest, well, that's nothing but unfounded slander. The ninth commandment prohibits lying. Open discussion is a good thing. Misrepresenting those with whom you disagree is wrong.

  77. Anonymous...Legalism doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, nor do emotional arguments.

    I fail to see where I've misrepresented anything. If you genuinely disagree with VF's message, whether in parts or as a whole, I don't think it wise to pour money into their economy, as you've admittedly done, and have your mind filled with their poisons.

    Perhaps you need to be honest with yourself about exactly what you do and don't believe, and honest with yourself about WHY.

    Also, if you're gonna come here and accuse me or my readers of "lying", and try to use the bible as a weapon against us to do so, you need to get your crap together, stop Imbibling, and stop hiding in anonymity. Misrepresenting those with whom you disagree is wrong. Physician, heal thyself.

  78. This reminds me of one of the first scenes in the Color Purple where Celie was shaving her father...WHO SEXUALLY ABUSED HER!!!

    So for people coming into this blog talking about the sweetness of these actions, well...seriously think about that. Some are right, it is true that dancing with your dad or having a tea party, in and of themselves are not wrong. But yes, context is EVERYTHING. In the context and teachings of this cult, it is emotionally perverted and doesn't reserve in a woman's heart the love, affection and uniqueness and exclusivity of relationship that she should have with her husband alone!

    Touch, especially intimate touch, like rubbing feet, can arouse the wrong feelings in a person. There are many women who feel ashamed because they feel aroused with breastfeeding at times and have to stop because of it. They know that feeling that way while feeding their baby is conflicting and difficult to do. Unfortunately, the way in which we can provide food for a child is also the way in which we can experience pleasure. But yet, it's obvious that God intended for us to feed our children this way. It has never been obvious and never will be that a daughter should tie her heart to her father before her husband. Her heart should be tied to the Lord until he unites her with her husband, and all the while, her heart should still be tied to the Lord.

    People are too naive to see where these actions lead. That's why modesty inside a family is even important. My mother never allowed us girls to dress scantily clad around the house--i.e. walking around with bras or panties on, or see through clothing. IT was not permitted because although men are well-meaning and a dad probably isn't attracted to his daughter, the nature of arousal doesn't always require that. It seems that my mother understood that nature and understood the nature of sexually mature men and women. Daughters become beautiful. Daughters grow boobs and other body parts. Daughters get a woman's shape. Daughters begin to look like women. You see where I'm going here. So it is just as much a responsibility in the home to guard the heart of your brothers and men in your home to be modest around them as well.

    It seems that this set up is in the guise of protecting women, when it really is making men live like kings and have subjects. I dont care if it's for love of country or anything else, you NEVER exchange freedom for protection. History should teach us that lesson.

    Rely on God for your kid's hearts, to protect and guide them. Rely on God for your own heart, to protect and guide and provide for you, not some man. But should the Lord provide a husband, continue to rely on the Lord to make provision for the both of you rather than putting your hopes in one who is fallible and imperfect. The Bible says we should trust no man, and yet, love the Lord God with all our hearts. Our ultimate trust adn devotion should be in God. When I shall become a parent, I believe it would be my utter duty to constantly remind my children of this--daily pointing their hearts towards Christ, not me and their dad. THere will be things in their lives we just can't get them out of. There will be hurts and pains that mom and dad can't heal. Children can cultivate that dependence on the Lord as they are able to understand.

    God bless you all... I'll be sticking around :) Good stuff here. Also, BTW, I just left an authoritarian/patriocentric church and am glad I did. Almost put in 2 years there, but I"m glad the Lord woke me up. My old church is one of the heavy hitters in the newly Reformed circuit sweeping across conservative denominations. So yeah, it doesn't even have to be a "cult" per se, but simply a church and denomination that believes and practices female submission and male authority. For the most part, it was as good church--but these doctrinal issues are causing some really bad issues, especially amongst women and men.

  79. Anonymous, it's libel. Not slander.
    Get your information straight before you start tossing around threats.

    The opinions expressed here are just that. Its awfully hard to sue over sharing personal experiences or expressing ones opinion.

    Doug Phillips and Co. green lights discussion about these topics when he makes the invitations to these events public.
    It is my opinion that Doug Phillips knows what he is teaching/fostering at these events is wrong as evidenced by his 'How to weather a visit from Child Protective Services' podcast.

    It is messed up. This crap destroys lives and families...just as it has destroyed my family and the family I married into.

    Quit defending them, Anonymous. A little bit of rat poisoning in a dessert is still deadly. No matter what little bit of good you might feel VF offers, the rest of it will still emotionally/spiritually cripple and maim...especially the girls who seem to be particularly hated and dehumanized by the VF crowd.
    My opinion and I freely share it.

  80. Good Lord Anon, they're speaking of EMOTIONAL incest, and it's there. Just. Plain. Sick. And stupid.


  81. "IT was not permitted because although men are well-meaning and a dad probably isn't attracted to his daughter, the nature of arousal doesn't always require that"

    Ok-you're getting a little weird and paranoid with that post. That's disgusting.

    1. But it's the truth. Open your eyes.


  82. This is Jennifer (may call myself "Jen" from now on). First I nearly vomited, then I was overcome with the urge to laugh uproariously (I finally watched it; my first comment was in relation to the quotes from the VF site). I meant to say earlier, the prices ARE outrageous, and that utterly fake Botkin..Botkin..jackass (had to think of a word that didn't cross the line). Phillips is of course a charlatan, the most obviously fake, honey-dripping creep of all (with some very close seconds), but seeing Botkin and his daughter drones always makes me want to vomit because even Doug's kids don't spend half the time talking about what an angel Daddy is.

  83. I think VF is a great way to teach daughters about putting their Dads first.
    Who would your daughter choose if it came down to another man, God or their biological father ?
    The answer is they would choose their Dad. So they don't need anyone else in their live, Dad can fulfill every need in life & the afterlife.

  84. Are you serious, Anonymous (3:07am), you are saying that a father should take the place of God in a daughter's life?

    A father is all a daughter ever needs for fulfillment? What about emotional? What about sexual? What about the desire to have children? Can a father fulfill those needs?

    I am just... appalled.

  85. Joanna, the answer is easy, just look at all the Saints in past history.
    None of them needed sexual relations or had their own children, in fact the nuns were virgins, they were not weak, they were the strongest & most devoted, they are willing to sacrifice their lives for God. Anyway, my question was simple, who would the daughter choose another man for her husband, God or their own dad if in fact it did come down to that.
    Everyone might choose differently, some may pick God over their father, others may pick their dad, but that question really pin points whats most important in a daughter life.

  86. Maybe i am not making myself clear. I always believe in putting God in the center of all relationships. I am not saying to replace God with Dads, what i am saying is who would daughters put first & above all if they had to choose between a Husband, God of their Dad ?
    Like i said every daughter will have a different answer, so the ones that would put their own father first would most likely be more suitable to attend the VF retreat.

  87. All the activities commented on (don't trust my stomach to watch the vid) sound like great things to do - IF THEY ARE THE DAUGHTERS IDEAS!!!!
    If I have a daughter, I'm sure she'll want to have tea parties with her dad and I wouldn't be surprised if she wants to see what it is like to shave someone (I know I did) and that she'll ask if she can try to do it.
    All the other things sound great too - IF THEY ARE HER IDEA.
    For me the creepiest thing is that adult males are telling other adult males to pay a lot of money to come and make their girls play these games with them.

  88. Ok. That was weird. Oh, yes. Definitely. The thing that I found the creepiest were the rose petals actually. Ick. As in, excuse me: A Daddy / Daughter retreat should NOT (repeat: NOT) be ... romantic. Ew.

    Ok. The thing I do notice also, is that *this is such a huge need in our society*. For dads to get to know and spend time with their daughters (and sons!)! In appropriate ways of course, but a lot of us don't know what that looks like and are wanting to know.

    These folks step into that vacuum with an apparent answer.

    Lord, help us.

    I can understand how people get caught in it and by it.

    We crave how God made things to be (whether we know that consciously or not). Which is of course not a bad thing. So when someone offers something that is supposedly that, we're interested and drawn to it.

    The definition of perversion is *twisting something good.*

    I liked what Darcy said - her comments were a breath of fresh air about spending normal, everyday life together and doing the stuff it involves (fixing the car, grocery shopping, occasional silliness). Following and listening to God and sharing that growth together.

    This VF weirdness is subtle, powerful, sickening stuff -- but we can be free -- it's just that freedom sometimes seems more scary or harder than a formula.

  89. OK so what bothered me about this was not the incest that so many others picked up on (I only saw it slightly, but I did throw up in my mouth a little!)

    What bothered me was the quotes you used that were from this organization. They did that thing I hate, where they use snippets of truth to disguise the lies.

    For example: YES fathers play an important role in their daughters' emotional health. Duh. But what these people are implying is that the ONLY way this can happen is through the transmission, from father to daughter, of a specific and rigid set of gender roles and leadership ideas.

    Huh??? My dad had a positive impact on my self-worth by loving me and knowing me on a personal level. What he thought of leadership and gender roles had NOTHING to do with his impact on my self esteem. Nada. Zero. Zip. Nothing. No Thing.

    Also, are they implying that young women shouldn't have peer friends? Um, hello, that's natural and healthy. You can't live in just your own household without outside connections (oh wait, that IS what they want women to do...)

    And finally...oh finally....what is up with "inappropriate romantic relationships?" Why is it just assumed that ANY romantic relationship is going to be unhealthy? Good grief My dad was thrilled when I brought home a nice guy. He didn't analyze it six ways from Sunday to find something wrong with it. He welcomed the guy. We had a nice dinner. A lovely time was had by all.

  90. WOW, All of you need to wake up. lets be clear here, i am not apart of this organization, so i'm not bias. you clearly do not see the importance of an event like this. it's not about dating our daughters, or neglecting our wives. this is making a statement to our daughters that we love them enough to teach them to stay pure. to hold out for there husband. the truth is, who ever is disbuting this, or even the one that wrote this blog, has more then likely never had the love of there father. the opportunity to spend time with him, and see how much he loves you. you probably don't even know how to except it. For a father and daughter to bond this way is more precious then gold. you would say that a daughters sexuality is her own, because you had sex before you should have, and you were hurt, so now you take it out on a program that only wants to help prevent that kind of abuse. there not a cult, they love there children, and your obviously an atheist.

  91. Anon 7:41 PM...

    Let me be clear here, and I'm not trying to be mean...Yours may be the single most ignorant anonymous drive-by comment in the history of this blog. The sheer number of grammar and logic errors almost make me believe it's satire. For your sake, I hope it is.

  92. I hope it is too. My biggest fear is that he is a home school graduate, followed by my second biggest fear, that he is a home school parent. Yikes and double yikes!

    My daughter knows she is loved by her Dad because he spends time with her every day. She knows she is important when he takes time to listen to her opinions and share her excitements and disappointments as they happen. It not only doesn't take a formal event, a formal event can not replace the depth of a nourished-daily love relationship between family members. Where such exists, ceremonies are superfluous. Where none exists, ceremonies are merely salt in the wound.

    1. No one is saying that daily loving & teachings of morals & values can be replaced by one event. However this event has good activities & healthy teachings in addition to a father showing his daily love.

    2. There's NOTHING good or healthy about this event. Nothing.

  93. Fathers spending special time with their daughters is a good thing. But this should be part of a practice where either parent takes special time to spend one-on-one with any child. This week my husband took our daughter to a movie, just the two of them. I took our son to ice cream, just the two of us. At other times I have done something one-on-one with our daughter and he has done something one-on-one with our son. These are good, relationship-building times, and I believe they do help children to grow up strong and secure in the knowledge that they are loved individually, for being the people they are.

    But this Daddy-daughter shaving thing, this Daddy-daughter indoctrination session, is not that. It is a way to teach young girls that the reason they exist is to serve the man in their lives. It sets Daddy in as that man until she becomes another man's possession. It's an unhealthy dynamic that is designed to predispose little girls to stay little girls forever, always under the care of a male authority, never able to take full responsibility for themselves in life or before God. It's just plain wrong.

  94. This retreat offers a healthy father-daughter relationship. Picnics, activities & high tea parties with classic music, surrounds & dressing up for tea parties would make any little girl feel like a princess. Being able to spend a weekend at a great event such as this, would be a excellent way to make life time memories & having a photo shoot done as a parting gift, would be a highlight in any father & daughters life.

    1. Keep telling yourself that and maybe one day you'll believe it. By the end of his trial, even OJ thought he was innocent.

  95. This father/daughter event is purely innocent. Only a filthy VILE mind COULD turn it into something so disgusting and evil. Pure HATEFULNESS and IGNORANCE. Jesus Christ was not hateful or ignorant. Who do you represent while spewing forth such poison? Why don't you just go to a private place and pray in secret and your father who sees in secret will hear you, instead of "preaching in the synagogue to be heard by man," where you already have your reward in full.

    1. Absolutely. That must be why, of the several thousand hits this post has received, most of them have come from people googling for incestuous porn.

      "Why don't you just go to a private place and pray in secret and your father who sees in secret will hear you, instead of "preaching in the synagogue to be heard by man," where you already have your reward in full."


      Is this satire? I hope so.

  96. whoa .. that's some crazy she-shaw ... my dad and I bonded the good old-fashioned way; going fishing, playing ball in the backyard, and driver's ed. I'm glad to say that my dad would NEVER ever consider it appropriate for me to shave him. I'm so sorry for these sheeple. God help us all.

  97. Actually, I think this was wonderful. They encourage a solid, Biblical relationship between father and daughter. I think rather that your idea of anti-Biblical "normalcy" is unhealthy from a Biblical perspective. Keith

  98. "Biblical" can span to a lot of areas, including some really effed up and dysfunctional areas. It isn't something I'd aspire to.

    This event is the epitome of a religious illness. I'd recommend the posts here on Religious Addiction.

  99. You've effectively summed up everything wrong with the Doug Phillips Strawberry-Flavored puke version of Christianity and father/daughter relationships. One of the most hardcore, ridiculously sexist-against-females women I know, told me her jaw dropped when I described this stuff to her.


  100. Lewis: I read your blog back in the day when you were going full force against the wackos of "Biblical Patriarchy", and now years later I want to thank you for the stand you took. One by one the dominos are falling, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips, and HSLDA is starting to get some negative attention, too.

    Doug Phillips is (allegedley) a creepy, creepy, disgustingly perverted man. Who saw the signs? I can tell you who ignored them, for years and years while the money kept rolling in! Everyone around him in his "ministry". The light's shining brightly on his evil deeds, now.