Wednesday, September 15, 2010

The Victorian Era Fantasy

As I've surfed around various patriocentric/patriarchy based sites, I see a litany of Victorian era drawings of women like this...

Someone please tell me...What gives? Isn't this like playing fairy tale or fantasy? Surely no one wants to go back to Victorian era England, do they?

I mean, class warfare was rampant in the VE. The lower class (which the women portrayed in these Victorian images were most certainly NOT in) was treated like crapola. Trash. Filth. Uppity-ness abounded. Forced child labor was extensive, with lower-class children being forced to do nasty, menial jobs that were considered beneath the women portrayed in these images. Other than the Queen, women were viewed as considerably lesser and inferior, both in rights and capability, to men (maybe that's the connection?). A man, for instance, could divorce his wife for adultery, but a wife could only divorce her husband for adultery PLUS brutality. Prostitution was often the only "escape" from starvation for women in the lower-class, all while the women portrayed in these Victorian images played prim and proper fairy tale time. These were generally NOT the kind of people who have a good grasp on reality, or who contribute many positives to the greater good. These women were largely parasites, living off the efforts and production of those who lived in squalor, while offering little more than a high-class snubbing in return to ladies whose only sin was to be born into a lower class.

For women like those portrayed in the drawings, the Victorian era was a time of pomp, superficial pageantry, useless, frivolous ceremony...and very little substance.

Does the "courtship" nonsense find many of it's roots here too? I fear it does. If so, that's just strange. Stranger than strange. I'll be looking in to that.

Why would anyone want to emulate the ideals and lifestyles of these women? This is who they want to be? This is "godly"? 

I just don't get it. Please enlighten me.


  1. And boom goes the dynamite...

    "Victorian Formality

    During the Victorian Era (1837-1901), romantic love became viewed as the primary requirement for marriage and courting became even more formal - almost an art form among the upper classes. An interested gentleman could not simply walk up to a young lady and begin a conversation. Even after being introduced, it was still some time before it was considered appropriate for a man to speak to a lady or for a couple to be seen together. Once they had been formally introduced, if the gentleman wished to escort the lady home he would present his card to her. At the end of the evening the lady would look over her options and chose who would be her escort. She would notify the lucky gentleman by giving him her own card requesting that he escort her home. Almost all courting took place in the girl's home, always under the eye of watchful parents. If the courting progressed, the couple might advance to the front porch. Smitten couples rarely saw each other without the presence of a chaperone, and marriage proposals were frequently written."

    That didn't take long.

    A little tweak here and there to get those nasty, deceitful ole emotions out of the way, and presto..."godly" courtship.

  2. Even more things that make you go "hmmm", courtesy of wikipedia...

    "Historians now regard the Victorian era as a time of many contradictions, such as the widespread cultivation of an outward appearance of dignity and restraint together with the prevalence of social phenomena such as prostitution and child labour. A plethora of social movements arose from attempts to improve the prevailing harsh living conditions for many under a rigid class system."

    "The term Victorian has acquired a range of connotations, including that of a particularly strict set of moral standards, often hypocritically applied."

    "Victorian prudery sometimes went so far as to deem it improper to say "leg" in mixed company; instead, the preferred euphemism “limb” was used."

    "The Church demanded obedience to God, submissiveness and resignation with the goal of making people more malleable to the will of the Church. The Church aimed to appease the will of the elite and cared little if at all about the needs and wants of the lower, peasant class."

    "The Upper Class (the Elite) valued history, heritage, lineage and the continuity of their family line. The Elite believed that they were born to rule through divine right and they wanted this right to continue. The Elite had a paternalistic view of society; seeing themselves as the father of the family of society."

    "The Elite were landed gentry and so did not have to work but enjoyed a life of luxury and leisure."

    "The Victorian Era began with the elite in total control of society and its politics. The Elite class was made up of 300 families which were firmly established as the traditional ruling class."

  3. The similarities are astounding. And like you, I just don't get it. I think it's great if you want to play dress up and go to a ball, but to want to live in bondage when freedom is an option? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

  4. In the Victorian Era women knitted covers for the "legs" of tables! Yes, they were seriously that morally uptight and bizarre!

    And yet, it was a time of horrible exploitation of women and children. Prostitution and child labor flourished, like Lewis pointed out.

    Forced prostitution flourished. Gin was sold on every corner to the working class of all ages, to kill the pain of living, while the high society types hid behind closed doors on their moral high horses.

    The Salvation Army got its start protesting the sex slave trade, child exploitation and the gin mills. While the Booths were rolling up their sleeves to bring the kingdom of God to earth, the fancy ladies were reading Dickens and congratulating themselves for being so genteel.

    Dickens. Pfft. Even he despised the hypocrisy of the Victorian Era, and it shows in his characters. Mrs, Jellyby of Bleak House, a great Christian woman concerned about converting the heathen in Africa, neglects her own large family to pursue her religious duties. That character sketch and its parallels to the QF movement is striking!

    But to get the real picture of the Victorian Era, read the play The Importance of Being Earnest. It paints the duality of men and women of the upper classes best in my opinion. It shows the simple-minded religiosity of the women, and the unbridled debauchery of the men while out of the home (a sphere about which the proper lady remained willingly ignorant) and their willingness to play along wink-wink with the ladies religious proclivities while at home.

    Like the Ante-bellum South, the people who romanticize these times always imagine themselves at the top of society's org chart. No one who wants to play Confederate imagines themselves sharecroppers, slaves or single women forced into prostitution. Likewise those playing around with Victorian sentiments always imagine themselves as landed gentry or educated professionals- never as chimney sweeps, glue factory workers, rag pickers or whores.

    Grown-up playing at fairy tales. That is exactly what they are doing, Lewis!

    Even funnier that the author of The Importance of Being Earnest was Oscar Wilde...

  5. I think pictures like this from sites like those are trying to evoke some sort of "we really appreciate your beauty and femininity" type feelings.

    As for me, it used to always put loads of guilt on. I'm not "feminine" feminine. But I've had 10 kids so I guess I'm female. My house isn't decorated all that great, and I'm a real simple dresser. Don't sew either. Yeah, guilt, that's what it did to me for any number of years. Like as if it was truly "Christian" to be.....I don't know....something other than what I am (who God loves and appreciates!)

    Hadn't thought about putting the pictures (not to mention the aura) in proper historical perspective....thank you Lewis.

    Now don't get me started on the Christian books for women which send us some fairly mixed, don't get me started, lol.

    1. What I find most striking about the Patriarchal/Quiverfull movement is the parallels between its tactics and those of 20th-century (and now 21st) advertisers, especially those that are trying to sell crap to women.
      The point of the articles in Glamour isn't to inform or entertain, it's to make you feel awful about yourself---how you walk, how you talk, how you screw, but especially how you LOOK. Every page without an advertisement on it is there solely to support the advertisers. They tear down your self-image so that you will buy their myriad products in the hopes that they will improve whatever is so awfully wrong with you.
      Patriarchy looks to be a very lucrative business. Between books, magazines, retreats, camps, seminars, paid newsletter subscriptions, homeschool curriculum, devotional guides . . . these folks sure are insistent that you have to buy a lot of crap in order to live according to what they claim are simple, common-sense principles that all come straight from one book you can pick up for free in any motel room.
      It would be pretty stupid for them to say or publish anything that makes their readers sit back and think, "you know what? I rock at this. I'm a pretty damn awesome person, and I am totally winning at this wife-and-mother thing, too." Women who are confident in their own worth and accomplishments don't buy anything to fix themselves or their lives, because they know nothing is broken. But convince a woman that not only is there something wrong with her, but it's something that she CAN and SHOULD fix, and hey--I happen to have JUST THE THING to fix it for the low low price of . . . Well. When you look at it that way, there sure doesn't seem to be much profit in telling women that they are loved and appreciated just the way they are.

  6. Perhaps this is also where secrecy and silence eeked it's way into what is expected of a 'proper' christian family... "we don't air our dirty laundry"...denial at its best (or worst).

  7. Cara, the onery side of me wants to get you started.


  8. So they're blindly following the ungodly influences and worldy attitudes of secular culture, only 200 years too late?

    Somebody pass me a TARDIS.

  9. I do find that many (most?) patriocentric families live in some kind of fantasy world. [I've seen this in other subcultures, not just patriocentricity, but it's definitely rampant in that movement.] At some point the line between fantasy and reality becomes blurred. But when you are in the middle of the fantasy, it seems perfectly normal.

    I have no problem with people who enjoy emulating another era (i.e. Civil War or Renaissance reinactors) but let's call it what it is--pretend. Taking the fun, good parts of a particular era and enjoying them because we like it. Ever since sin came along, the world has been broken, and so have the people in it, so I think it's ridiculous to copy particular historical eras because they are more "godly" than others. Sure, there have been periods of history when the percentages of Christians were higher than other times, but history is hardly the shining ideal portrayed by Vision Forum and others like them.


  10. I am still scratching my head on this one.

    It seems that in the patriocentric circles around here, the enticing historical setting is pioneer or early Amish. Either way, I don't get it! I remember Hillary telling the story of her family living "simply" and the devastating moment when they killed the family goat and boiled its fat for soap. Where was the romance?!

    I have seen this play out in how they homeschool their children too. When I suggested a more modern approach to mathematics, or when I passed on a great book written in THIS century, I was promptly dismissed.

    What a laugh!!!

    Resting in the freedom that comes from Christ, who lets the captives FREE!!!


  11. Mara

    Karen, I wonder if the denouncement of modern things (in a deeper way) is a response of fear. I think Hillary points this out in her book. The truth is, modern society Christians in the U.S are struggling and it doesn't matter which side of the church's lenses you look through. Speaking of the Amish, I just watched a BBC documentary last week about them....I think revival may be coming. But at the moment in most of their churches the grassroots Amish can't even read their Bible because it's in German and they speak/read either a form of Dutch or English. So, they look really nice (the women are definitely tradition and feminine) but you start digging and there are holes all over the place in what is actually going on.

    Pioneers must trail blaze, and the pioneers who have tried to bring back some family value to counteract feminism, careless fatherhood, and a couple of generations of Christian children actually falling away from the faith teach (and produce the auras they do) from that viewpoint, perhaps, because there were safer children, fewer falling away from the faith, and strong Christian family roles many years ago. Now this Victorian aura....that is many, many years ago and I think Lewis has a very good point as do many of you to point out the fallacy so little people like me don't get hit with guilt when we go to those sites or read the books, etc, which tend to promote the type of "feminine female" this is trying to portray.

    I lived with a relative for 12 years who greatly valued her roots. She loved her father. And he was a Methodist who was equally a freemason. I have lived for many years as a Christian woman trying to stay with my Lord and obedient to the Bible while fighting, not my relative, but the humanisitic ugliness of looking really good (or shall we say Christian) when in fact it is wicked indeed. Our warfare is not with the people. It is with the powers of darkness. And it is a battle indeed.

    The sad part to me, right now, is that the simple remedy is not to "plug holes" of sin like this as Lewis is pointing out. The remedy is always repentance, at least in my personal opinion. So many (myself included sometimes) don't want to do that....pride. We also cannot seem to see a fuller picture of say, Christian womanhood, because of unbelief in the Bible which manifests in so many different ways. The balancing factor is the Love of Jesus Christ. I think we Christians tend to struggle with pride enough that we don't stay in it.

    I think this using of "historical setting" where women are concerned may have it's roots in trying to oust ideas of feminism, the type which attacks the traditional female Christian role (and I have been attacked indeed by that bugger within Christianity...and judged).

  12. Lewis, others here, this is what I've been trying to Tell you, but you need to Dig DEEPER, look, this Victorian era is NOT a fantasy, this goes into something far more sinister and deeper and into an ideology-RELIGION that goes back to ancient times, and Yes, it is tied into the KKK and into the Aryan occult/eugenics beliefs, Odinist, though they go way more into far eastern Caste system beliefs, going back to B.C., and then you're getting into the worship of entities that I don't think I need to expand upon here, but this goes back to the beliefs of the Sumerians/Egyptians, that pyramid/Caste system, all of it,

    and it is AGAIN, REVIVED TODAY, not just in the dominion, creationalist religions but in the occult or cults/New Age [alien worship] that is from Ancient Mesopotamia and India [Hindu, the Semites that brought the caste system beliefs there during Ramses in Egypt] and so forth,

    they believe in the pure blood line from Seth, and all others not pure blood to Them are from Cain, serpent seed. This was their justifications for killing Jews in WWII, the demons etc., and this belief is becoming HUGE today,

    and it's being pushed through a quite clever religion, this is why Christian Identity, the ultra-Patriarchal and Dominion/Creationalist movements/or religions are very similar in their 'creed' to the other beliefs and YES they do glorify the

    caste system of Victorian/Puritan [look into your German history, prior to WWII, why Hitler wanted to go back to a more 'pure moral time', because of the moral decadence in Germany after WWI], the build up to all that, the ideologies of FASCISM in Europe [and in Russia, Tsars] and look at the Religious influences of those beliefs,

    this Isn't just some kind of out there subculture, this is HUGE and the Patri-fanatical that you are seeing here is Just one BRANCH OF IT,

    the Belief if you strip away the onion layers is this: that there are only two kinds of people, ones from Cain and ones from Seth, by blood line and so to have dominion on earth, to bring their 'version of Christ' then there has to be a cleansing of the earth of the serpent seed, to them salvation is not by Grace/belief but by Genealogies [and Paul warns of this btw] but of who you are by blood line when born,

    this also Yes falls into Calvinist beliefs, the whole predestination, etc., THIS is why they have no qualms whatsoever with YES those 'undesirables' who are child slaves, prostitutes and Vermin...because to THEM these are satan's children Anyway so what ever suffering is fine,

    they are 'select', 'chosen', etc., by their version of 'god' [con't]

  13. con't, this is Also why they hate Jews, they claim that the Jews [Zionists] are internationalists that mixed blood away from the pure [going back to Sumerian, Chaldean, Babylonian, Egyptian beliefs] and huge belief of this with the Protocols of Zionism and the anti-Semitism during yes Victorian times, the Tsarist Russia/Cossacks, early American and WWI and WWII, etc., Spanish Inquisition, etc.,

    this is why 1. they really push the having QF of children, 2. they really push the separation from the 'serpent seed' and 3. they really push the 'sexual control' over women,

    they may Deny this but if you do your research on numerous boards on the blood lines YOU'LL see it, many of them do NOT hide their beliefs either,

    so like, to them the Genesis, where the Lord God says I will crush the serpent's head, etc is Literal, rather than Spiritual,

    to them it's an actual ridding of people by birth blood line, who are pure, to them chosen by God, etc.,

    rather than by spiritual re-birth/grace, etc. They will claim grace but it's ONLY extended to those of the pure Seth bloodline,

    this belief is also huge in Mesopotamia, Egyptian brotherhood, Nazi's, the ones who worship aliens [ancient Sumerian and Chaldean beliefs being revived today] and so forth,

    they take the scriptures of Old Testament [like with courtship, etc] and twist them in a way where it's like forming a genetic eugenics tree of pure blood line,

    because it's taken Literally this isn't hard to do, but there are even Literally some main differences, like with the courtship, God chose the mates [Rebekkah, etc] for godly seed [see also Malachi] and then the plan/mystery Paul referred to was the saving of the others through Christ Jesus, etc., the Spiritual seed,

    but Purists [race/blood line] on the other hand take this further, through genealogies and physical,

    there is a Whole lot more to this, but that's the gist of it.

    This will be why they will justify the Holocaust that will happen, and it's NOT just these ultra-patriarchal kinsmen type of churches, it's also in the Secular [even worse there and it is growing],

    morality to them is by nature/traits of personality due to your birth/family line/race line, mixed with grace [though not really grace]

    this is Why you see the heavy influence on works based salvation, on separation and on control of birth/blood lines.

    Go to God Like Productions and read a lot of them who go out there and you'll see it...

    it is basically the belief of the 'children of 'god' verses the children of who They claim to be, satan or serpent',

    by Their definition of course.


  14. That genealogy link is an interesting mish mash of hogwash, but a good example of what people tend to believe about the Victorians. Wrong on so many levels! I've been interested in Victorian manners and lifestyles for a long time and, well, the card thing especially made me LOL! Not going to bother debunking the whole thing, though.


  15. Your post was pretty much spot-on as far as the hypocrisy and misery of that time. What is interesting is that there were some upper class ladies who started schools, helped the sick, taught men and women, advocated for changed laws, and made real changes happen. Those women faced a lot of challenges from their peers and parents, but they were strong and they kept going. What they did was right, even though many times they did it against their parents' wishes.


  16. L...So far, that first link is the only one where I've seen the card thing. Lots of stuff about the rise of courtship during that era, but no more cards. The women in your second comment would probably be labeled as "radical feminists" by the patrio crowd these days. Interesting stuff.

  17. It's easy to romanticize earlier eras while taking for granted freedom won with the blood and tears of the people of those eras.

    Did the women of the ruling class really have it good? In Victorian times, it was said that "the law regards a married women as no different from a dead woman." That was the truth. Any property which she inherited from her parents became her husband's property. Anything that she had owned herself, while single, became his. She and her husband were one in the eyes of the law-- and that "one" was HIM. When her husband died, his property passed to his children. If she was lucky, he might leave her a little pension, invested so she could live on the income, but the principal wasn't hers. If she'd spent her married life as mistress of a large house, she was expected, as the "dowager mother," to give up her place upon the marriage of the oldest son, and give her house to her daughter-in-law to be its new mistress, while she was relegated either to a back bedroom, or to a small "dower house" on the estate lands.

    Upper-class daughters were expected to marry for love-- but they'd darn well better fall in love with someone with money! Their only path in life was to make a "brilliant marriage." If they were raped or seduced, they were "ruined" and had to live the rest of their lives in complete seclusion and shame. If they married beneath their station, they could be disowned by their parents. If they got pregnant, it was not uncommon for them to be turned out of doors to starve in the streets.

    Women were taught a little reading and basic math, and otherwise only some art, some music, and "deportment." They weren't expected to be true companions to their husbands (who sought intellectual comradeship at their mens' clubs)-- but only pleasing and ornamental, a pretty thing to have about the house.

    Oh yes, such a "Christian" era it was. . .

  18. Thank you Kristen, very helpful for thought!

    And to what you have said I ponder: Why oh why do we put ideals upon Christianity such as this?

    Jesus picks the discarded pregnant elite daughter up off the street.

    Jesus forgives the unloving husband in this case, if he will put down his pride.

    But they must hear of Him through our declaring His Gospel, both of them.

    My little list of Victorian Era forgiveness and salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ is limitless. But when any of us, as Christians in any era, put limits on what Christian must look like then we aid the devil's work. In the same thought, if any of us, as Christians in any era, ignore the fear of God which drives us to Him, then equally we aid the devil's work.

  19. I don't why any woman will want to live that way. Thank God fo the freedom in Christ.

  20. "That genealogy link is an interesting mish mash of hogwash, but a good example of what people tend to believe about the Victorians. Wrong on so many levels! I've been interested in Victorian manners and lifestyles for a long time and, well, the card thing especially made me LOL! Not going to bother debunking the whole thing, though.'

    Thank you A, you know Lewis, others here, I didn't read the genealogy link when I posted, just saw the let me Debunk one of the main 'lies' that the genealogy romantic kaka [excuse the french, LOL] uses,

    see my other two replies--this is evidence of...OK, well you know how God has been freeing me through a lot not from fundie circles that many of you have dealt with but from the other side of the totem pole so to speak...

    these patri-fanatics which I already informed you this goes further back into purity, based on genealogy race purism, where you get the heavy KKK and Nazi-CASTE system types of ideologies IN these groups or cults, etc., ok now This is what you see on Surface, ok,

    let's go deeper into Spiritual warfare, using this link here you gave Lewis, for Debunking, scroll down [on that genealogy link] and you will see the beginning--

    "All the Nordic countries have courtship customs involving knives. For example, in Norway when a girl came of age, her father let it be known that she was available for marriage. The girl would wear an empty sheath on her belt. If a suitor liked the girl, he would put a knife in the sheath, which the girl now wore as a sign that she was betrothed."

    con't next reply due to word count--stay tuned because THIS is very important to help Pray against these forces, you'll see why when I explain

  21. OK, now let's get into the Spiritual Warfare--this link, these Beliefs, using Romance, aka Romance, root Roman, now from My experience being a yes type of Monarch for a cult when I was child, they used Venus, and that Pantheon, IF you know about the pantheons and the beliefs and temples and then know Corinthians, etc., that era, you'll probably have better understanding,

    but to Debunk the lie, I'll use Venus...because that is what was one of the key main forces over me--what God showed me, ok, in part of my deliverance from these dark forces [and NOT to revile the gods here, very important, and I do NOT understand how all that works as far as being Under God's authority but to me, how I look at it now is that God as it says in Romans can use both good and evil for Our good as we Love Him, etc], so,

    Venus, the statute that I always seen/image, the altar that was put in my mind [how they do these controls over you, is putting the altars see OT in your mind, etc through abuse/torture,rape, etc] well Venus has her arm cut God showed me, one day, that HOW in the world, can a woman, love and nurture a Child with her arm cut off? That child will die, failure to thrive,

    the 'lure' of Romance ok through Venus over me was the Prostitute, the exposed one breast woman with arm cut off--that was the power force lie, the beauty, esteem and the one that all men want, etc., and THAT is the image that is sold to women as being THE ultimate Female, etc.,

    the LIE is that this female, with only one arm/one breast, is raped, is half human, and can NOT love/nurture her child OR others because she has been maimed. Do you see what I am saying--so in Spiritual Warfare, when you look into these pantheon beliefs and their influence over doctrines that have crept into the church,

    you using scripture can see the twist and lies and how these false doctrines using dark sentences OK, a type of sorcery, using images, the Lust of the Eyes, Lust of Flesh, so forth, to Mold those who adhere [be it desire or ignorance into the Maimed Injured Christian or human, Woman, and you can break these Strongholds by using scripture,

    see it Is a very strong Spiritual warfare/force that is being unleashed today DUE to itching ears, Due to idolatry, Due to pride of life, etc., now with Me, Venus was a huge stronghold, and so was Artemis which now I thought strange because Artemis is Greek pantheon, Rome and Greek have 'parallels' ok but So does the Odinist, Nordic,

    it was only two months ago that God showed me Nordic because see after Venus, the injury came Artemis, the hater/of men Because of the injuries, the bound legs that cannot move [hands and feet, our works, etc., OK] and so God had to deliver me from that force, and then the Nordic, I went through Cold period...and through the image of white witch of Narnia, good example [taken off of Nordic beliefs] God then showed me how love grows cold due to iniquity/family lines esp occult, and how to Break those, again another Stronghold...

    we wrestle Not with flesh and blood, etc.,


  22. Now for me Jesus also showed me how to use those images using His word, for also strength, this is Very hard to explain because this warfare was a lot of mental, because these forces can go Real deep into the psyche/soul of the victim through Trauma, mind controls, etc., and then with Sin even more so, etc.

    Some things in Bible, that God showed me, first was Thou shall have NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME, nor make any Image unto them, be they in Heaven, in the Earth or Under the Ocean[eg. Atlantis], HE didn't say these 'gods' didn't exist,

    just do not Worship them nor follow their ways nor serve them.

    another thing God kept showing me in OT was how when one king would worship these 'gods' then later a son king would TEAR DOWN THE GROVES AND THE ALTARS,


    for Any doctrine that Uses or refers to the rituals and beliefs of customs that are UNDER THE RITES OF OTHER gods/goddesses THEY ARE SETTING UP FALSE GROVES/AND 'ALTARS',

    so when one Practices these rituals you are actually serving these other 'gods',

    THIS is what is SO dangerous about these false teachings, they Open up the door to the demonic realm.

    there IS romance, there IS courtship, etc., but the Key is to find GOD'S way and then do things HIS way, not under the ways of 'other gods',


    to Glorify and give Honor to God in all we do, to Acknowledge Him, etc.,

    a confirmation of this, in Word, is in Malachi--if I am a Father God says, where is MY HONOR...

    who gets Honor from these Victorian/genealogy beliefs? They mention, the Nordic, Nordic 'gods' the pantheon, the


    the rest of what this site mentions, is Welsh, English, and I can tell you they are referring to Druid worship, Celt--through the customs,

    there isn't anything Wrong with knowing or seeing the beauty in other customs/culture but there is a real difference, in seeing those and then PATTERNING OUR LIVES AFTER THOSE RITUALS,

    see when they begin to focus on Emulating [Paul says not to] on these rituals, giving glory to the worship of 'gods' of ancients, etc., they are creeping IN the worship of angels/gods and so forth and THIS is what is VERY DANGEROUS,

    because it goes far deeper than just the innocent looking rituals of courtship or romance, it's ONLY the beginning of something Far more sinister,

    this does NOT mean we have to shun or be in bondage to fanaticism, if you know what I mean for me I take a lot of things back because the way I see it, all the beauty was in God's kingdom in the place and was stolen/distorted to hurt and abuse God/Love and His creation...

  23. now how God does this for others I do not know but for me this is how He's worked a lot--but I did have to learn and am still learning how to really be careful and Discern, to reject lies/forces that may appear good but are evil, or to take back going to scripture, etc., it just depends, on what it is, but now when there is a Constant LIFE patterning after these types of beliefs,

    and a setting UP of a culture, then we are really talking about a true form of Jezebel and oh Ahab I think, it's the bringing in of worship of other gods/goddesses, Rejecting the Cornerstone, Jesus Christ, and Rejecting the Sabbath, which meant,

    the Seventh, the One Creator over it All--God, the most HIGH GOD, the ONLY GOD.

    so YES, we Do need to debunk these teachings because they are far more, than just innocent [remember Satan can appear as an angel of light] little ways of doing things to return to nostalgia,

    the question is, what Type of Nostalgia are they returning to--and with these Victorian/Kinsmen Patri centered beliefs, they are, like I said, with the Nazi's and that whole occult, are returning

    those who follow, to the worship of THOR.



  24. One more thing, because this keeps coming to my mind...ok Go back to what I quoted on that genealogy site, on the Nordic and 'knives', OK I'm going to show you here [I do hope you all are reading all my posts, I know they are long, sorry but they really ARE important],

    ok the glorification, of the Nordic/knives, now I will show you, the Occult in this,

    similar custom, in one of the most cruel forms of Hadiths in Islam, in Somalia, where they do not only FGM but fibulation, the cutting with knife then sewing up, on the wedding night the groom uses knife to rip her open, it is extremely painful and causes HUGE medical LIFELONG problems --


    in All pagan/occult rituals the end is Always BLOOD LETTING, especially to children and virgins because of the adrenaline/pain and Trauma. It is YES the other kind of physical covenant sign, opposite from the circumcision that was required under OT law, for God,

    do you see what I am saying? All Ancient societies had some type of blood ceremony, sacrifice, etc., where God was different was that HE used animals, HE was very Opposed to the sacrifices and blood letting of children,

    Paul speaks of this too in NT when he talks about the will worship and blood letting, where some group would cut themselves, this is also in OT, God CONDEMNED IT.

    The glorification of certain rituals that depend or the end result is a form of blood letting, is Key to understanding that there are dark forces at work,

    now from what I have read, on the occult/that tortures children, those who belief in aliens being fallen angels, etc., I don't say this is true or not, I don't know, it's a strong possibility, but one of the things they said is that these fallen aliens desire the adrenaline in the blood letting as some form of energy, now Who knows,

    but when you Look at the increase of submission and abuse, in these teachings, let's take the DD for example--

    if you Know anything about the rituals and blood letting during Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts [during a very Evil time in man's church], the vampires [seriously, Queen Bathory would kill peasant virgins and bath in their blood because the belief was it gave her beauty and youth] and if you go through all history and read up,

    then you See strong correlations, that are all over the Old Testament--and why God was very opposed and why God told the Israelite s that they shall NOT do these things.

    No where, in OT did God ever use any such rituals/using knives, or blood letting, in courtship or in marriage, these were heathen practices, of those who worshiped other 'gods'.

    to close, Jesus said, in the end days, it will be like the days of Noah--they will be married and given in marriage, in the days of Noah, Genesis, the Nephalim took women/wives,

    take heed...these teachings today--while I won't say, Thus saith the Lord, I am NO expert, I will say, they beg strong discernment and caution--stay True to the commands of Jesus Christ, and Only to Him.

    Love, Jane

  25. No argument from me, Jane. This stuff all goes back to some pagan and very sinister, shadowy roots...the kind of stuff Paul routinely addressed in his letters. Most people have NO idea the dark basis of so many religious rituals and traditions that are commonly accepted as pure, wholesome, and virtuous.

  26. True Lewis and what is so concerning, well down right scary is how much of the very strong dark forces are being pushed in churches, even in mainstream. See I was away from church since I think mid 90s, and coming back I was Shocked, really to see what has just in a few years taken over, but now I see looking back how these forces were at work in the 80s.

    The thing about that 'knife' ritual in Nordic, is very similar to the rituals in the most horrific abuses in Somalia, in Islam, to women/young girls, I thought about this today,

    the thing about these innocent appearing rituals, is that dig deep enough, they Always, lead up to the blood letting, and that is 'key' there,

    the sacrificial ends. And it's always tied up in either war [war gods] or sexuality [prostitution/sex slavery/temples For the war gods],

    then of course, the birth, for the perfect Army, or perfect race of warriors...the little clay dolls, this goes back to the very ancients, good example of this is the Chinese emperor and the clay soldiers. IN the occult, especially today there is a lot of symbolism with the clay altars handling the victim, especially in music videos, etc.,

    many think altars are Only clay poles or totem poles, but no, today they are actual altars that are through trauma/torture being put Into people, victims, through mind controls. This is one reason too I am not that trusting of psychiatry either, because they too, have a very dark side, using women, poor, for mind control experiments.

    How would any of this be relevant today? Simple, genetics testing/engineering and Cloning...where science fiction isn't really fiction and where it is becoming more spiritually manifest.

    A real need for discernment and wisdom today, is So needed, the most dangerous thing, is to Not believe these things are possible, they not only are possible, they've been going on since the days of Ancient Egypt, Mayan, Olmec and Greece/Rome, etc. It really is a Matrix,

    and many are seeing it--I believe like many others, that in the end, the real war, like the movie Inception [some wisdom in that] is truly going to be Mental against the forces of hell literally unleashed on earth. this is where,

    choosing Love and being love centered Inside, not just outwardly, is very important.



  27. Jane, while I confess I have not been able to read everything you have written, I will say what I have read puts me in mind of freemasonry.

    There is much of freemasonry in Christianity today, though my research indicates it is dropping at about 2 percent a year in the Southern Baptist Church (this was a report from 1992 or 1993).

    I have had a very personal run in with freemasonry, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that the Love of Jesus Christ covers us, delivers us, and redeems us from all of the evil. I worship the Lord, for many of us are walking miracles of His Love.

    It is a comfort to read Revelations. Hard, yes, but a comfort to know the outcome of it all. I am sorry you have had in your life what you have had, but that seems too trite of a statement. (((JaneDoe)) Please know I feel sadness and weeping inside for you and for so many like you, though I don't know you in real life.

  28. Lewis,

    Interesting observations. Here is my take on this phenomena, having lived within this “movement” for many years.
    The phrase “women’s role” has been used for the past 50 or so years, (post-WW 2 anyway) to define a desired place for women in the social structure. It was never a term used to describe women in any religious context until sociologists during this time used it. Now it is the go-to word for placing women into a patriocentric box and is also used to define Scripture. A role is simply a part one plays and we all have roles that come and go. I have used the picture of me being the mother of the groom 3 times now but it is a part I played for a couple hours and once the pictures were taken and the couple drove away, I was me again! The “role” does not define who I am or God’s life purpose for me, only the part I am playing for that particular time. The blurring of the terms “purpose,” “calling,” and “role” is done, I believe, on purpose so as to create a paradigm. And we all know that along with a “role” comes a stage, costumes, a script, etc.
    Within the patriocentric paradigm, the only acceptable role for a woman is being a wife and mother. The stage is whichever time period she prefers as long as it is one where hierarchy reigns. For some of these women it is the antebellum South, for others the Little House era of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Still others are quite taken with the 1950’s. Their script is written for them and they all sound the same, talking quietly, acquiescing to all males, Melanie but never Scarlett. Seriously, if you read any of the patriarch wife blogs, these women all sound the same, have predictable “solutions” for the problems of life, and even eat and drink the same things. It is amazing. To me, it truly is a version of Stepford Wifehood.
    Along with this, of course, comes the costuming, which you hit on. Currently, it looks to me like the popular style is stuck somewhere in the mid to late 1980’s with baggy clothing so no one sees your shape and lots of lace and big collars and even big hair. There is also a “little girl” look that I attribute to the huge influence Helen Andelin’s Fascinating Womanhood has had within this community. One of these days I will post pictures of me from 20 years ago during my early homeschooling years so you can see how the style have never changed. I used to call it my “Faye Sammons designer look” after one of the women who often spoke at the ATI conferences in the summer time!

    Interestingly, the Bible addresses this. In James 3:17 says: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Hypocrisy is literally translated "role-playing!"

  29. An interesting side note that may or may not add to this conversation:

    My husband and I were discussing society during this era, particularly the difference between the "civilized" east and the pioneer west. And how very different the "roles" of women were in those two places. The east/cities were very much how you described: women were really just pretty objects to be displayed or things to be used for men's pleasure. But in the rugged west, among the families that left everything to carve a living from the wild land, men needed more than just pretty objects. They needed "helpmeets" in the true sense of the word. Without their women working along side them in the dirt and dust, they and their families would not have survived. Women were still treated with honor by good men (even the bad men of the west had respect for women) but there was no role-playing. There couldn't be. Those who tried to keep the ways of the eastern society didn't survive very long. Women needed to pick up a gun or a plow and fight for their families just like the men did and often by themselves after their men were long gone.

    For a lot of women who were used to the kind of treatment they received in "society", this was a huge shock. But when you look at how many of them rose to the occasion and showed strength, I wonder if it was a relief for most of them?

  30. Darcy, my favorite sculpture sits in a museum called Woolaroc in Oklahoma.

    It is a pioneer woman, with a baby in her arms and her breast bared as if to nurse the baby and a rifle in the other hand. She is looking straight ahead (facing the future) with determination. I *love* that sculpture.

    It was created as an entry in a competition for a sculpture to honor the women who helped tame the frontier. The sculpture was for the town square of conservative small town in Oklahoma, so not surrisingly my favorite did not win. =(

    The winner, a dowdy woman in bulky clothing her face obscured by a prairie bonnet, is leading her son to town to get an education. You can tell they are going to school because the boy carries books bound by a leather belt in the hand not holding on to mother.

    I never thought much before of the dichotomy- the open face, nurture, protection, strength of the sculpture in storage vs. the anonymous frumpery of the woman taking her son to town to hand his education over to higher powers, silently surrendering her influence to those who know better.

    Very interesting, these two views of the pioneer woman and her contribution to society.

  31. I added myself to follow your blog. You are more than welcome to visit mine and become a follower if you want to.

    God Bless You ~Ron

  32. On roles, roles have been constructs way prior to the 50s, based actually on Labor, in ancient days this was based on, within tribes, the types of Tools used and crafts, etc. There are numerous theories as to the roles of women in ancient times [talking B.C. and prior here] and one of the theories I believe that is probably the most accurate, is that in hunting/gathering societies, the role of woman was childbearing/communal and farming Because of the fact, that women with children could not hunt well due to the animals hearing the children/cries, etc. Good book on this, by Gerda Lerner, "Creation of Patriarchy", and she goes into also the development of slavery Based on the slavery/trade of women--for various reasons. Now she tends to put a lot of blame on the Judaic tribe, etc., but she does include the slavery/sex slavery trade of other societies, so there is some bias However in spite of some of the obvious bias, she also is very accurate and pinpoints the exploitation in so called 'presumed' matriarchal leaning societies, where they worshiped both gods/goddesses. A good study of OT law and ancient Mesopotamia though I think reveals that God was actually working through a dialectic/evolution to Free women from exploitation,

    one thing God revealed to me in prayer is that one reason for the allowance of concubinage/etc., was the fact of, well two things, 1. the wars leaving many widows that would NOT have survived with the amount of wild beasts in only female societies and 2. the types of economy, with famine [and esp before gold/empires] and the work load necessary to survive in very hostile geological environments.

    I think we tend to neglect those facts when doing analysis on women's roles and status in those time goes on, I believe that Marx Did have one of the best class analysis, that revealed a lot of the problems with feudalism/women's roles--however he was not the first--numerous ones prior to him claimed similar analysis. Particularly prior to Reformation, prior even to Luther [see Revolution of Saints, secular book but exceptional analysis of the changes from feudalism/and faith] but anyhow....point is, cont

  33. con' we get into cotton gin age and Industrialization, the roles of women changed more but they had already changed much but would reverse or return to traditional, in colony days, Depending on the need for labor or communal growth, slavery had huge impact and in America actually it was the debt sales trafficking of Women that brought over slavery-women Were the first slaves, fact, you can find archives in Library of Congress on this--

    but in Industrial age and in Victorian times, one of the dangers in glorifying epochs is that it is often done through a very narrow lens. Fact is, there was huge disparities of roles depending not only on Class, but Race and Region. In fact it was many Christian women, who were in socialism at that time [socialism then was predominantly Christian] and numerous feminists were also Christian, now the feminism then though some did go a bit more radical was Christian based, very works dependent, esp towards the poor, mostly who were Women,

    and one of the best books, actually, I think is Charlotte Perkins Gillman, who I don't think she was Christian but her analysis of the Victorian era, that Many Christian women agreed and also Warned about, is so very true--She said, in one of her many essays,

    that the Victorian 'pampered' woman because the class/labor was changing including for Men, was the child and that being the pampered doll child she had not the sense to raise Children to be functional adults but that these children would grow up to be very self referenced, spoiled and self centered. Many Christians of that era agreed, with her, and why many did Not embrace the industrial age, etc.,

    so really what I'm trying to relay here, the fascination of the Victorian period, in the narrow lens, does not take into account [much like Mussolini's trains on time] the other part of history, such as

    class differences that had huge impact on the morality of family and society, race and immigration, that was also a huge huge problem then--and last but not least the Greed factor and how Greed was changing not only communities [esp agrarian] but individuals as well. More and more WOMEN became the moral gatekeepers because as men leaving the lower class got more into chasing greed, they left off faith and women then were hugely put into moral gatekeeper role--This is WHY in that era, there were far more Christian WOMEN missionaries and even numbers in the church.

    We also have to account for the huge differences in societies such as between Britain [imperial nation then as was Germany] and America--because the glorification of Victorian is very narrow, they were NOT the same, in most ways, between the two continents.


  34. So in taking any kind of role analysis based on Only Victorian times or from a narrow lens views really leaves a lot to be desired, it is extremely misleading and actually, the patriarchal glorification we see often on the net/and from these ultra-religious groups is not so much city Victorian as much as it's the Southern Belle [civil war/race/etc] Victorian period...where it's not only class but also heavily on race. The fact that they do NOT even go into the truth about Why certain women were Able to be in a position of house-doll-ornament is that they Neglect the work load of the slave woman who in South was African, and in the North often times an immigrant woman [from East Europe] or a black woman, etc.,

    and of course in western US they also had Chinese slaves and so forth--depending on city/town and year, etc.,

    and then to glorify European Victorian times, well they were very different and there was even More class distinction between even the Europeans, they don't take into consideration the 'ethnicity' tensions, nationalism that yes was Very strong then, this is WHY revolutionary socialism/nationalist socialism Got the numbers of support they did During the Victorian and Industrial era--

    and Christians of that era, often were NOT of the pampered Bourgeoisie class, some were but many were not, and this is why you Get the writers/influences such as Charles Dickens, for example--

    I guess what I'm relaying here, is that either there is just a HUGE ignorance of history [and herstory] or there are other elements of ideology that USE segments of history and pervert them to propagate a form of nostalgia that really has nothing to do at all with a return to the former as much as it has to do with the return or reestablishing of a former ideological bent--I tend to believe it's the latter. And the reliance and use of this warped and very distorted nostalgia of Victorian a is the kind of propaganda used to manipulate women that is similar or if not identical

    to the propaganda used by Mussolini and Hitler, under Mutterland.

    Peel the onion layer and you'll see the rot of white supremacist in the glorification in ultra patri doctrines, that have Nothing to do really with the Gospel whatsoever, or even with returning to simpler times,

    it is planned, it is also Reactionary, to the changes today, in Europe against globalization [and I strongly agree with those threats, granted] and here, it's more I think protecting the status qua of Privilege, white privilege because it's under threat--a lot of the fear is yes, valid, but the solution,

    is pure evil. WE are, in the midst of what Europe was in, prior to WWII, the moral decadence, the nostalgia, the desire for national and ethnic pride--history repeats itself because humanity doesn't take heed.


  35. [last reply--see other three] AS to Why women are targeted, in ideological /or cultural revolutions [revolutions also refers to counter revolution--going backwards, via reactionary esp] is that Women are the cultural and community center, this is why in any propaganda used in ideology be it right/left, etc., women are the first targeted,

    Camus did an exceptional analysis on this, "Algeria Unveiled", and This is I promise you, the number one reason why Women are being targeted and manipulated, especially through the accusations of loyalty-guilt to race or class [today race under the guise of God] and this can also be systematic meaning to protect a certain kind of system, etc., that is under real threat,

    or even imagined threat, and also the control of their sexuality, this is Especially true in nationalism. Nationalism heavily relies on religion, to steer women into compliance and obedience,

    beginning with Isolationism, and this my friends, is the origins, of Totalitarianism,

    read Hannah Ardent's "Origins of Totalitarianism", and you'll see especially with the corporatist fascism we are under today [what they deem as 'friendly fascism] just how eerily similar the social psychology engineering of totalitarianism in the 30s and 40s is here today,

    this is also from top to down, it's not just reactionary from fringe groups, and That is the scariest thing of all because if you follow the money trail [political connections, esp with religion] this has been on going just as it was in Europe,

    every Empire falls, we are next. I guarantee you...they are able to do this with the dumbing down of historical knowledge, teaching a homogeneous history that is slanted, [can be done in either camp] and while there is much knowledge of Hitler and Stalin,

    there is a lot of ignorance on the conditions that primed and made the misery possible to drive and ADHERE to the banality of evil,

    and in Every single catastrophic change women were the first to be influenced and then targeted and controlled, particularly, through the use of religion, populism, reactionary.

    And they often used, nostalgia--to return to the former days of an imaginary 'glory'.

    We know what results--and the most tragic of all, is that WOMEN, pay more dearly, with their bodies, with their souls, than all the engineers and men combined. And they pay, for generations...

    on all sides.


  36. "Peel the onion layer and you'll see the rot of white supremacist in the glorification in ultra patri doctrines, that have Nothing to do really with the Gospel whatsoever, or even with returning to simpler times,..."

    I agree, Jane. I think, in many, maybe most (although clearly not all) cases, the cultural war that rages in the US today has nothing to do with saving any form of Christian culture, but rather, saving white conservative culture. It works better for those waging the war if they can tie the name of Christ into it, even if fraudulent and superficial in it's use. Helps them sleep better at night and justify misguided indignation.

    I'm white, and I'm conservative, but God have mercy on me if I ever begin to worship a culture rather than Christ.

    1. love that last thing you said there- totally agree. This last election (not to open that can of worms, but) kind of brought all that to a head for me. I think that American Christians have been so sure that their brand of morality would save the world that they've become complacent about their actual place in society. It would be better for us Christians to experience some persecution and realize we aren't the Moral Majority after all, because then maybe Christians would be less enmeshed in their Christian culture and more aware that they are in the world as it exists in reality, but not of it. Our hearts need to change, not our morals primarily. I am sick and tired of cultures and sub-cultures becoming more important to people than the Christ they profess to love and serve. I grew up in England, and to be honest, being a Christian in the minority can be good for one's understanding about what matters.

  37. True Lewis, for me that was leftist culture I had to be delivered from, LOL, my parrot, ate my Marx books, a while back, really unnerved me and Jesus said,

    I'll have No other 'gods' before me,

    rofl, yea I wasn't laughing then but ya know He [Jesus] has a sense of humor!

    and so, on a lighter note...since it's Friday, warning to any who Don't have a sense of humor, ah,

    after writing all the serious replies you know If I don't switch it off I can get into some deep depression so like with Music God often uses films/or comedies to minister to me--and as I was browsing today, I came across this, funnier than ever, I LOVE this show--odd how God can use some of the strangest things to edify,

    but hey, LOL, this one, is roll on floor type

    wisdom from the mouth of children, puts things in a Whole other perspective, bwaaa :lol:



  38. I haven't read all the comments about this. But I will share an opinion. Every *era* in history has it's flaws.

    This is one thing I *do* appreciate about my pastor.

    He points out the flaws in history, whenever someone says the *wish* it was like the old days.

    This world is evil. And no matter what age, or era we live in, there are weaknesses, and problems abounding.

  39. Just wanted to state, the world is evil because of the fall of man and sin. Not that God created this world to be evil.

    And the world is not evil in of itself. But sinful men trying to "run" the world make it evil. And no matter what age or era we live in there are weaknesses and problems.

    I am also reminded of this, as my kids are memorizing a timeline with Classical Conversations.

    Every event that they learn about, there was some form of sinister evil going on to fuel the major historical event. All except Creation, and The Birth of Christ.

    Here is what they learned the first week

    Fall in the Garden (sin)

    Cain and Able (first Murder)

    The Flood (God destroys the world because of sin)

    Tower of Babel (Men wanted to be like God and tried to build a toward to show Him they were just as good or better than he was)

    The Old Kingdom in Egypt (Egypt is full of myths and crazy cults and religions)

    Unification of Upper and Lower Egypt by Pharaoh Menes. (Again, Egypt isn't some place I would of loved to live during that time)

    First Intermediate Peroid in Egypt. (Again, Egyptian culture is no where from "ideal")

    As the time line continues, I am just reminded over and over again, of men's flaws and sins. The only solution is a relationship with Jesus. And still, we will have trouble in *this* world. We are pilgrims in this world, looking forward to our *real* home, where it *is* perfect.

  40. @ Eric P...
    I about fell out the chair laughing..."Pass me a TARDIS"....WHOO!HOO!

    SOOOO true! Human nature was human nature 200 hundred years amount gloss can cover it up... and them upright and uptight Vics were into some KINKY WEIRD stuff behind closed doors.

    As mentioned women and children's lives were cheap...I suggest watching BBC's adaption of "Our Mutual Friend" and 'Nicholas Nicklby" (actually I like the 'Nicklby' w/Anne Hathaway and Christopher Plummer in it best...

    Eric have given me an idea for a post :)

  41. I think of this as "Scarlett's dilemma." In "Gone with the wind" she couldn't have Ashley, but could have Rhett. In her mind she built Ashley up into something he was not and pushed away Rhett. It's the same with the Victorian fanatics. They want what they think it was like, not the reality. Do they really want to empty chamber pots, inhale coal dust and die of common illnesses? No! They want what they imagine a mythical Victorian lady had--including the servants-- to live life on their own personal Fantasy Island.

  42. I would like to point out the fact that no truly Godly woman would EVER wear a dress cut so low in the front or Heaven Forbid! off the shoulders as the ones most Victorian ladies wore as exemplified by the picture. So much for Victorian-ism.

    Couldn't resist sharing the chuckle I had especially knowing I'm pointing all the fingers at myself. Yes, I've thought this for real in the past.

  43. Yes, and I see the same sort of snobbery amonst those that adhere to the courtship philosophy today. A sort of spiritual snobbery that snubs its nose at the spiritual underclass.

    Ironically, Victorians did not practice "biblical courtship" in any sense of the word.