I have to admit that the whole 200 year plan idea (masked by some as "multi-generational faithfulness" or whatever) for world domination is fascinating. Bizarre, and perhaps psychotic, but fascinating. Geoff Botkin is the inventor of the plan, and not exactly a guy I would look at as stable. You can read more about him here.
The idea is to choke out the cultural opposition by sheer force of numbers. Breed. Breed. Breed. Then... Indoctrinate. Indoctrinate. Indoctrinate. It acts to determine the course and outcomes of life for future generations - before they've ever been born - as they'll, through the indoctrination, share the "vision". Keep in mind, they're not talking about God doing this. They're talking about patriarchs doing this. If they can get these future generations bred and indoctrinated sufficiently, there'll be enough of these cultural warriors around to gain positions of power and influence to essentially take over the government and restore America as a "Christian nation".
Personally, I think their aim is the preservation, promotion, and imposition of white, conservative culture (which they confuse with Christianity), with it being masked behind a facade of wholesomeness and family values (dysfunctional, in my book), but that's just me reading the figurative tea leaves. It's kinda like these Hollywood stars who get their faces stretched every which way to Sunday, trying to shave off years and create the illusion of youthful beauty, staging a race against the clock which they're guaranteed to lose. Who do they think they're fooling? They end up looking like they're wearing a really bad mask of themselves from 20 years ago. It's the same for these dominionist movements. You can throw words like faith, family, godliness, biblical, honor and the like all over it, but words like crazy, dangerous, proud, and scripture-defying tell the more accurate story.
It's almost like shaking one's fist at God in defiance.
Let's look at putting faith in a numbers game, scripturally...From 2nd Samuel 24...
So David gave orders to Joab and the army officers under him, "Canvass all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and get a count of the population. I want to know the number." But Joab resisted the king: "May your God multiply people by the hundreds right before the eyes of my master the king, but why on earth would you do a thing like this?"
Even Joab, scoundrel that he was, knew, and feared, the consequence of the king putting more faith in the size of his army than in God. It ended up costing the lives of thousands. Through faith, God can work through miniscule numbers. Reliance on human power rather than Heavenly power strikes me as ironic for a group that makes such a huge deal out of "rebellion".
Now, to putting faith into a 200 year human plan...From James 4...
And now I have a word for you who brashly announce, "Today—at the latest, tomorrow—we're off to such and such a city for the year. We're going to start a business and make a lot of money." You don't know the first thing about tomorrow. You're nothing but a wisp of fog, catching a brief bit of sun before disappearing. Instead, make it a habit to say, "If the Master wills it and we're still alive, we'll do this or that." As it is, you are full of your grandiose selves. All such vaunting self-importance is evil. In fact, if you know the right thing to do and don't do it, that, for you, is evil.
This 200 year plan doesn't seem to run on biblical combustion any more than the breeding/numbers angle does. Seems to be very much a human conception. In fact, the word "evil" is applied, in every translation, coming from the Greek "poneros", which means "wicked/bad". "Full of your grandiose selves", or, in most translations, "boasting", comes from the Greek word "alazoneia", which means "an impious and empty presumption which trusts in the stability of earthy things". Very telling.
This is some cultic stuff. I don't see much of even so much as a trace of Christ (invoked disingenuously) in most of it. People at the top of the food chain are getting rich off of it, though. Gotta love that patriarchy business.
I go on record as saying that, in the big picture, I see these as some of the most dangerous people on the planet. I'm not kidding. I fear that their Heaven looks a lot like hell. The earthly dominion they envision sure does.
Editorial and commentary on Christian culture, religious and political fundamentalism, and more.
I just want to add...
ReplyDeleteWhenever I think of this 200 year stuff, Pinky and the Brain comes to my mind. Without fail. You cartoon buffs out there will know what I'm talking about.
I remember needing to repent for self righteousness as I came out of the mind set of quiverfull doctrine. Part of that process was realizing I was not taking my childbearing walk one day at a time as Jesus instructed in Matthew 6:24-34.
ReplyDeleteThis 200 year plan of which you speak violates the heart of faith in God's finished work on this earth. It is human arrogance to assume we could manipulate anything over 200 years. It puts me in mind of the Tower of Babel.
This is sad. The reason being is because any time humans exalt themselves against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:1-17, which is a very telling read in my personal opinion concerning the authority of the Apostle Paul) is the human arrogance which severely injures and kills scores of people over history.
Blessings today and thank you for sharing your thoughts,
Cara
" As it is, you are full of your grandiose selves."
ReplyDeleteOh, this is so true of these movements.
Once again, you've pulled no punches and sugar coated nothing. Thank you for speaking up about all of this!
"The earthly dominion they envision sure does." Oh yeah. Have you read The Handmaid's Tale yet? I read it at the beach last weekend and hell on earth is exactly what the patriarchs envision. The Handmaid's Tale explores what America would become if they succeed. Very scary stuff.
ReplyDelete"If they can get these future generations bred and indoctrinated sufficiently, there'll be enough of these cultural warriors around to gain positions of power and influence to essentially take over the government and restore America as a "Christian nation". " At this point, many of the home school grads are too weird and ill-equipped for success in any sphere requiring popularity with the general public for success. BUT then there is Glenn Beck....
Maybe I was too much of a free spirit to fall for this one, but even in my short experience as one of these people, the 200 year plan was something I would never do to my children. When I asked questions to nail down what they were trying to say, they were always very evasive...here's my thing...we all want our children to be all that they can be and our families to work together for common goals (at least when they were little we tried...ex. community service together or something like that) OK...so, now let's say, we have a "family vision"...we are going into politics to save America...but my son is a musician...lol...he doesn't want anything to do with politics. So, I failed here because I couldn't imagine forcing my musician son into a suit to make speeches...I think we would fail at saving our nation...get my point...they could never answer that question...I guess because the key is that I should force...
ReplyDeleteI kind of rambled there..hope it makes sense...btw, great post. I really enjoy your writing.
ReplyDeleteLewis you hit several nails square on the head. This is one awesome post. A lot was said, condensed in a few short paragraphs.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting to me about this 200 year plan, is how do they take into account that Jesus might return before their plan is even begun?
Oh wait... They think Jesus *won't* come back until they take back America? Right?
If Jesus should not come back in 200 years, I believe their plan would fail horribly.
For one thing, not every one of their children will fall for such nonsense, and individuals change *so much* within their own short vapor of life. The plain is not fail proof. It is very grandiose ideal.
Maybe I am misunderstanding Dominionism. But if it rests upon Christians to get Jesus to come back to the world to rule...it strikes me odd that they claim to believe in the Sovereignty of God.
Heather (J2J)
I go on record as saying that, in the big picture, I see these as some of the most dangerous people on the planet. I'm not kidding. I fear that their Heaven looks a lot like hell. The earthly dominion they envision sure does.
ReplyDeleteLewis,
Have you seen this post at The Wartburg Watch?:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/07/22/the-real-reason-for-the-quiverfull-movement/
I should say their vision of America is frightening!
These people have no concept of the grace of God whatsoever. Very Biblically confused.
RiH
Beware year 201.
ReplyDeleteRiH...The scary part of that is that most of the people practicing quiverfull and patriarchy have NO clue of the real motivations behind the movement.
ReplyDeleteThese dominionists want to punish sinners for things that Christ has already taken the punishment for, in essence nullifying the work of Christ.
Wolves, one and all.
It's apostasy.
"The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!"
ReplyDeleteHeh, heh.
The command "be fruitful and multiply" issued to Adam and Eve has been as far as I can see, replaced in the New Covenant with "make disciples" and "bear fruit" (meaning the fruit of good works and Christian character). The Kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking. Neither is it supposed to be about breeding. Otherwise neither Paul nor Jesus would talk the goodness of remaining virgins for those called to do so.
Lewis once again you have pointed to Scripture to show exactly how wrong this movement is and why. Kudos to you, keep up the good work!! I will be directing as many as I can to read this!!!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the wolves' Bible has the books of Hebrews and Galatians in it?
ReplyDeleteThey want to punish sinners for the things Christ has already taken the punishment for and they want to add their own works to His finished work for their own salvation.
It is apostasy indeed. Incidentally, I understand they have among their ranks members of the ICOC as well.
I feel sorry for those in this movement. Especially those for whom the bloom has fallen off the rose and they have no recourse but to do something desperate.
It is not from God. It makes me so angry for what it does to people.
I used to read a lot of the Christian homemaking blogs before I knew what this thing was. I admired the ladies who had big families, assuming they were able to afford them and marveling at how they could possibly handle so many kids. But then it started seeming like they were trying too hard to live up to this standard, and I could not figure out why so many of them insisted on being so politically correct with the sustainable homemade everything and all natural stuff. (Cloth diapers??? Who does that anymore?) And I never could get on board with the dresses only idea either. The looking like your own gender and not the other one idea, yes. But dresses only and hair down to your waist is the only real way to accomplish that?
No. They don't get it. They think this is Biblical.
Actually, I think a lot of people don't know what is going on here. Even good pastors don't know about this, I think. They see these extreme but superficial things (hair and dress) and just see these little dandelions and pick them, not realizing there is a wicked soul-defiling, faith destroying root underneath that needs to be killed. I didn't know it either until I started sensing the tone on these blogs was not right. It was like these ladies were stressed in a funny way. Like if they didn't talk a certain way so they would appear like they thought they were supposed to appear, someone was going to judge them in a scale and find them wanting. It seemed manufactured and over the top. Not real, Spirit wrought spirituality. Just an appearance. "Look at me! I'm keeping all the rules! See? See how spiritual and lady like I am? Because I really need you to see me that way." And I figured from that something was up. I intended to research this at some later time as I had another cult related project I was working on so I put it in the back of my mind.
But the cult project I was working on led me to the Quiverfull movement.
RiH
As an avid environmentalist [though not extremist] I was Not aware that the QF and similar were into sustainable living,
ReplyDeleteit's kind of well, I don't know, an oxymoron, I mean IF they know Anything about the environmental degradation, the materialism as a main contributor caused by, CONSUMPTION CAUSED BY MASS POPULATION,
how does then breeding high numbers of people go along with that...because Lust sexually is the same as Lust material, lust of eyes lust of flesh, etc., so That is I don't know,
they sound to me like the Green Nazi movement [yes don't laugh there is even a Green Nazi party], but now,
Taking this, this is what IS really scary because there are numerous in the secular who are also eugenics-elitist fanatics who though on the Opposite side of the pole, they are anti-population, of course, that basically applies to the poor and people of color,
it's End times, not just apostasy--salvation by works or evolution by progress, to me it's kind of the same thing,
but neither goes to the real root of the problem, the condition of the human heart.
sustainable living is good, but there can be dangerous legalist extremes that are anything But love and even care for the environment/nature, not only that but to Live like that is in of itself extremely patriarchal, as it takes So much time to do all those things from scratch/primitive, this is why a commune is so necessary or tribe, to try and do this lifestyle with a male centric nuclear patriarchy,
simply does NOT work, it can't. there are other very serious problems that also come with this extremist population, Disease. Strain on resources, haven't these people Any idea of the serious catastrophes in other patriarchal-theocratic nations, such as Bangladesh, due to overpopulation/low status of women?
Jane
Somewhere, though it's on one of my older computer drives, there is a good analysis of the root doctrine and the overall agenda of the Dominion movement, that was done by some in both Christian and in Secular analysis,
ReplyDeleteit's the same philosophy-ideology that Hitler and the Third Reich [Vril society, etc] had which has ties into the occult, with the whole Eugenics tree and all that,
I can't recall the authors of the analysis, it was done a few years ago [and they included mainstream/political Christian supported and Mega churches] but the one thing they exposed, was the doctrine of 'purging',
the belief is that once dominion is here They will purge [holocaust/genocide] against all those that don't Obey them...though they claim it's Jesus Christ who will be ruling them, etc.,
some of the Mega churches push this doctrine, it reads just like out of 1984, another thing I remember too from the analysis and they broke it down and used the quotes of the leaders Of this movement,
was the heavy emphasis on hierarchy and Super Apostles, yea That was it...because I remember thinking, how odd, the whole super apostles, of course with them being the men at top--and anyway, then I saw in the Word something Paul said and he was rebuking the whole super apostles but I can't recall where, but anyway he rebuked the whole hierarchy setting up, etc.,
anyway I did find this, I'll include here,
http://www.cultwatch.com/superapostles.html
Doing some blog work and LOL, God has an amazing sense of humor, I use to be a huge fan, have nearly all his movies, anyway,
ReplyDeleteI couldn't resist, it just Fits with this entire topic,
LOL, the ending rocks, oh Yea! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clrFI7Muqf0
I'll be posting more on this, and don't be surprised if a guest post or two pops up.
ReplyDeleteVery serious issue.
"it's kind of well, I don't know, an oxymoron, I mean IF they know Anything about the environmental degradation, the materialism as a main contributor caused by, CONSUMPTION CAUSED BY MASS POPULATION,"
ReplyDeleteThe "sustainable living" angle for the QF crowd is strictly an economic necessity. But as usual, they find a way to take a negative and white-wash it as a virtue they can feel superior about.
The negative truth: we don't have enough money to feed these kids.
The virtuous spin: we live off the land because we are morally sensible people not afraid to make sacrifices. Look what good stewards of the earth we are! Growing our own food and canning it, eating game, etc.
The negative truth: we can't afford to clothe all these kids
The virtuous spin: we are modest, that's why we all wear the same "uniform"- it's just an added bonus that it makes it easy to hand down clothes from older to younger kids. Also, we are humble. We aren't too proud to wear used clothing like SOME people. We are industrious. We make clothes with our own hands because we are virtuous workers at home- but it is much cheaper than buying those wicked designer clothes the world wears.
the negative truth: we can't afford health care for all these kids nor do we want some accountable person from the outside world to interact with our family
The virtuous spin: God gave us herbs, and we are thrifty and wise to rely on natural, God-given remedies- not like those worldly "Christians" relying on the world's remedies. The fear of man brings a snare. Tsk Tsk
On and on it goes. They use cloth diapers not because they care about landfills, but because they can't afford anything else. On another blog I read they also use hand-sewn menstrual clothes and in some homes even toilet cloths- all bleached and washed and reused.
They get weirder and weirder yet proclaim in more shrill voices how morally superior they are.
If I was Oprah, I would take an audience full of QFers to a spa/cult recovery retreat center for two weeks. It would rock their world, and I think that after returning home to such dire austerity and lack, in mere months they would be quitting "the vision" for reality.
Since the "Contact Me" doesn't work on my computer for your site (all the other options do!), I'll use the comments route. Go to http://resolved2worship.xanga.com/ September 21
ReplyDeletepost to find out how this person deals with wounds from the QF movement. Scroll down beyond the photos to get to the meat of the message. What a beautiful picture of balance. Be encouraged. Victory is possible!
ML
Wow, OK, well, ShadowSpring, and Lewis, this is where,
ReplyDeleteok how to say this, this is what got me into a lot of strife over at ex-QF months ago [and why I eventually just had to leave that whole blog] and well this is where Class, I think really meets the road here,
and I think this is where, many like at the ex-QF [and to be fair I, and voices similar to mine, run into this Same issue heavily in the Secular as well, I'm talking here among radical feminists, pro-Obama dems esp, etc], and well It is relevant I think, in a HUGE way because it is one of the Main forces other than culture/race that drives the reactionary Populist movements which includes yes fundie religion,
and that is Class perspective and the Criminalization and/or demonization of the Poor.
Example: family fundie type has ten children and goes to a form of survival [maybe even crisis mode] mode, sustainable, etc., like you said, makes it into a Justification, religion, etc., and Secular society demonizes/faults them
compared to
Example: family yuppie type with career that can't have children has infertility drugs and then has 8 to 10 and then BECAUSE of their economic 'status/definition in class society' and their career, they are Praised, rather than demonized, they are assisted, given help, when They go to sustainable it's a opt, a choice, a thing of Progress, new left, etc., they are deemed acceptable [to most] and will receive Far more empathy or forgiveness Yet they too, CHOSE TO HAVE, BIG FAMILY,
compared to
EXAMPLE: Poor single mother or African American family, [or Latino, etc] has five children, works low to manual labor/middle, winds up not being able to pay rent, homeless, is then Demonized/Criminalized for having large family [esp of other race] and for being poor...they too also opt for sustainable as they HAVE NO CHOICE, but to learn to live off bare bones, hand me downs, food bank/group coop gardens [huge actually among anarchists/mostly poor youth, in cities where cost of living high esp housing] and squatters, etc.,
they Too are demonized or marginalized, actually more ignored because People FEAR these types because they don't actually fall into the religious, though yes ideological that Results from the poverty First, they are also reactionary but based on analysis of situ rather than religious life choice, etc.,
do you see where I'm going with this? Would the fundie groups [leave out the like cult aspects for a bit here focusing Only on the economic/how it's Used to define what is ill with the ideologies, etc], be As demonized based ON economics,
if NOT for the religious aspect?
Yes, in fact this is where when you peel the onion layers you see a double standard hypocrisy, such as the willingness to attack religion [even IF deserved] yet not attack Class Prejudice, this is Especially TRUE among atheists [oh yea, some of the worst hypocrites there on this issue], Malthusians, worse hypocrites there [and then we Really get into Race privilege here] and so forth,
you know it's a bit safe to bring up Race, but bring up Class analysis into these deconstructs and well it gets really nasty,
and those of us From that underclass/lower sector world that Know it from looking at it all from the gutter so to speak, the marginalized, WE see it, and I guarantee you, it is what drives a Lot of these reactionary groups--including yes even political Islam, and it's the ONE area, main area, where the Hypocrisy in Christianity,
is the most exposed and bare ass naked, also in the so called liberal bourgeoisie liberal or atheist, etc., even among the Sustainable Living [new left/progressives] we see this fact--
and it Really IS behind, a lot of the 'definining' the ills of those we do not like--but question is,
Is it truly a Fair and Honest analysis or is it, class prejudice seeping in?
Jane
ML...You can contact me at lewcom AT bellsouth DOT net if you need to in the future. Sorry that the "contact me" link didn't work for you.
ReplyDeleteand WHY IS THIS RELEVANT?
ReplyDeleteBecause, like at the ex-QF blog, the hypocrisy is,
the willingness to Attack or Confront the abuses among those of your own Class [or race, esp in nationalism] but NOT confront the same ills including yes CULT LIKE ABUSES against those
of lower caste.
Especially where WOMEN ARE CONCERNED...
this is where rubber meets the road, in a HUGE way,
and it's where in numerous countries where class is truly life/death for millions, the revolutionaries [yes revolutionaries] will join forces with the religious/or ideological reactionaries, Against
the upper echelons of class--Socialism, a bourgeoisie Euro-centric solution [btw] which works to Actually preserve the class distinctions [contrary to the myth that it's to erase them--this is why Lenin and Mao hated the western socialist] can lean either towards nationalism [race/religious, etc] though it's not truly for the poor/working class except to use as fodder, war, revolutionary, etc., this is where the more radical revolutionary opposes both--which,
guess what, appeals to the more marginalized, such as theocratic groups and so forth.
The whole social question--EXAMPLE of this, during elections with Obama, when numerous of the bourgeoisie 'rich' left [including race nationalists, demonized the white poor [in south/east] and these poor, NOT all religious mind you, working class, Because they are marginalized, invisible, etc.,
and low in numbers, don't have the political pull to fight back, ok against big media, etc., In that poor/working class
are Numerous women, single mothers, many left abuse, etc., other groups such as Native Indians, indigenous, many yes African American women who in ghettos [yes there are still ghettos] have to put up with horrible sexual violence due to the Betrayals of Their leaders/boys club, fact,
and the betrayals of their own due to class, fact,
etc etc etc...those marginalized groups, will find many of these reactionary cults Appealing, because there is that Solidarity,
based on class, being demonized for the same damn things that the other classes do--do you get what I am saying? And the thing is, the Top rung, makes the policies such as, let's say zero population [where I got into it big time with Ex-QF] that will USE the oppression of religion,
but all in all, it's actually really a form of manipulation to Rid of the lower rung...the undesirables, to preserve privilege, mass labor pool/cheap labor, so forth--
throw in scientific progress Thought police in there and it really becomes Orwellian,
because it IS.
See this is where WE can be a part of the Confrontation, such as ex-QF but ALSO be part of the whole big picture manipulation/social engineering of something FAR more sinister,
divide and conquer, how it works.
Where the liberators so they think, can actually, be really, the Pawns in a much more Dangerous game.
Why eyes wide open, looking OUTSIDE the group box, is so necessary, and you Really see it, when you follow the money trail/class distinctions and HOW they effect our lens.
Jane
The "sustainable living" angle for the QF crowd is strictly an economic necessity. But as usual, they find a way to take a negative and white-wash it as a virtue they can feel superior about.
ReplyDeleteWell, that figures. :(
You make some excellent points, shadowspring.
I had heard about the hand sewn menstrual cloths too. (As if!)
Jane, you too make some very interesting points, especially about how all this seems to have the same kind of "flavor" to it. Personally, I think every form of dominionism, whether spiritual/religious or humanist comes from the same source and so we will see some overlap among the dominionists and those who seek global governance, for example. We will see a lot of distinction among these groups, but the bottom line is the same: Man setting up a global kingdom or system of governance in the name of Christ or Allah or the ascended masters/Maitreya or whatever, that everyone else must adhere to or die.
I could say a lot more on that subject but I won't for fear of causing a trigger of some sort in susceptible people. Instead I will say this about the Real Christ. He is gentle, and lowly of heart. His yolk is easy and His burden is light. It is a yolk of rest for the soul, not a yolk of never ending burdensome toil, straining after His approval. He is the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep, not the harsh task master who beats the sheep. He does not break the bruised reed nor extinguish the smoldering wick but came to bind up the brokenhearted. He does not drive the sheep, but gently leads. He came not to condemn the world but to save us, and reconcile us to Himself by His own sacrifice and not by ours. (Free gift means free gift!) If this Jesus sounds different than the Jesus you encountered in any of these cult movements then you did not encounter the real Jesus but a false one. The false Jesus caused the wounds. The real Jesus would heal them.
RiH
RiH,
ReplyDeletethank you, So much, esp for this,
'Man setting up a global kingdom or system of governance in the name of Christ or Allah or the ascended masters/Maitreya or whatever, that everyone else must adhere to or die.'
the Latter part, with ascended masters/Maitreya, etc.,
thank you for posting and for giving ME assurance, like you I too can't go all into here what I've seen/personally know,
and in the wilderness here alone with Jesus [where HE lead me, believe me for my own good], outside the camp so to speak--it can get really hard to be assured that I'm seeing/discerning truth and so forth,
it's scary, sometimes it's just really scary, especially when So many are just bogged down in all this other stuff that I agree don't get me wrong,
but at the same time, lately, I'm seeing something very sinister, also at work IN the confrontations, like, OK, I checked stats on my blog,
you know anything negative [or that targeted fundies] got Huge hits, but any/all posts relating to God's goodness,
got less than ten. This btw, Christian readers,
you know that Says something and it's something God has been putting on my heart for a long while--
I guess, what I'll close with is this, WE need to be really careful, walk gently like a GREEN leaf with life, not as a dried up yellow leaf broken off the tree in the Fall tossing in the wind with a thump, thump, thump,
in focusing on the ills of fundie groups, etc. eyes wide open but at the same time,
staying IN that vine, green soft leaf.
In other words, confrontation has it's place, but also, beware the SNARE that is also, there,
just something Jesus has been really putting into my heart of late.
Love,
Jane
I think a lot of this can come crashing down, honestly, when godly women can understand the base line issues of the curse placed upon them at the beginning of time.
ReplyDeleteIt is my understanding from some reading I've done on the internet that there are 2 interpretations of the curse on women running around....and the one which is most prevelant (and indeed, the interpretation which I've had to remove from my own thinking being raised a Christian woman) is the most often taught in an underlying way in many ministries and churches.
I understand Ken Nair is an author who speaks of this, and I intend on reading his book though I apologize that I cannot remember the title of it at the moment.
My point here is I hope for a revival amongst women, in their homes, which will dispel this sort of tyranny of which you speak. The reason being is if Christian women can get ahold of the truth of what they have been redeemed from, then they can turn and do 2 things which in my opinion are very powerful indeed in Christ Jesus: Throw the stinkin' fruit back at the Serpent and forgive the men perpetuating these mindsets in the Body of Christ.
The power of forgiveness along with the power of God working through women as they walk in the fear of God in their homes is something I am just waiting to watch happen in this country.
Just some thoughts,
Cara
Shadowspring at 8:43am makes some great points. It's kind of strange that some of these groups have highly developed doctrines of the Trinity (the one and many), yet are so into self-reliance, self-sustainability and isolationism.
ReplyDeleteYou can add to the list home births using midwives, home brewing of beer, etc. And I'm not sure about the money issue, since this is a growing movement that gets many of its followers from Christians "in the world." They're leaving modern society and bringing their already secured wealth with them. A lot is made of ammassing wealth and giving it as inheritance to the generations following.
Cara, the whole curse on women is FALSE TEACHING, period. No where, NO WHERE, in Genesis did the Lord God curse women,
ReplyDeletethe serpent was cursed and the ground was cursed for Adam's sake and that was IT, the ground's curse was removed after Noah [after flood],
and then the curses of disobedience through generations [also broken in Christ in Ezekiel] but those curses were in OT law...
I will multiply your sorrow, etc. etc. etc. is not the same as I curse you, or cursed is the ground or cursed is the serpent, etc., not even Close,
and Here's the thing, that so many thanks to the leanings of mammon loving misogyny have pushed that so many miss,
woman carried the 'seed' therefore IF the enmity hadn't of been there between woman/serpent then humanity would have been screwed, literally, That and,
the sorrow, multiplied, we can go to Job, with sorrow [and with desolation] is where GOD is at...His presence, so what Looks like a curse to many who like to twist that around to justify their rule,
is actually a blessing in disguise, IF we look at this in spiritual sense, rather than material. For it was through the pain [and Jesus referred to this often] of childbirth [and actually with each child this is less and less, etc, usually] where Power lay in, the power to not only bring life but to Protect that life, THIS is why,
men [women haters] have done All in their power through out time to Colonize the birthing of women, through medicine [stripping women's autonomy over their body/etc], through trampling on women's only space, etc., [this is where yes I am still very avid radical feminist and will NOT back down on this] etc., BECAUSE there is REAL SPIRITUAL POWER THERE,
always has been, the Ancients knew this, as did the native Indians, as did yes THE MIDWIVES [of which though I'm in NO way fundie am a strong supporter of and I delivered my second child/and first homebirth, practically delivered my second by myself, and Yes there is HUGE difference between Woman Centered EMPOWERED, NOT FUNDIE PATRIARCHAL MISOGYNIST CRAP which really just Peeves me to see how they are Hijacking the most ancient of all autonomous women [even goddess yes] powered birth/child rearing with these cult beliefs but Anyhoo,
Spiritual childbirth and patriarchal guilt fear ridden and driven childbirth, HUGE DIFFERENCE, and ah, a lot less pain, I might add,
my Point is Cara, is that what has been spewed using scripture is So twisted by the doctrines of men who are Afraid of women's power, sexuality and yes the Female side of God [and it's all over Bible], it's Euro-western Rome centric, [here's one area where they are Worse than Islam which Is sad] and well, to be frank,
it's just a lot of Bull. They PUT more pain into women through these abuses of scripture by twisting those scriptures, and having a real lack of understanding of the over 100 scriptures in OT alone, that reveal the power of Female, including yes birth, sisterhood, that GOD was very intimate with/in and so forth, same goes with nature, it's In the Word, I see it every day,
but see with euro-centric male nuclear centered [love of mammon/gold] that all has been erased or cleverly skewed over, no Wonder women have such self hatred and fear...no Wonder there are these warped teachings [that really belong to the Artemis/Ishtar lot, the whole fear and you better do this thing in childbirth] than they do with Jesus Christ, or even OT law [pre-Babylon interpretation that is] with the whole women were cursed Nonsense,
taught by women WOMB HATERS...A.K.A. THE ENMITY BETWEEN THE 'SERPENT' AND 'WOMAN', That should be the give away Right there, it's amazing how few see that,
con't
con't
ReplyDeletePain is not necessarily a 'curse', as pain can be relieved with herbs [and they Did use herbs for childbirth back in B.C. FACT and it was a very empowered ritual in All ancient societies, very woman centered, Still is in Eastern societies that still have women centered spaces/sisterhood, one of the Good things about gender segregation, FACT, that we Don't have here in the west with the ultra-male nuclear misogynist patriarchal under Man 'god' model]
where the curse on earth--could Not be relieved, until God removed after flood, Adam nor Eve were cursed,
only the serpent and the ground...Because, lets not forget, the serpent was cursed to live on the ground, so with the serpent on ground came the curse on ground....[this explains a bit about Mayan beliefs, the sacrifices TO the serpent, and other ancient beliefs in South America, Mexico and parts of Africa].
pain and pleasure, are in the spine, the spine is a Tree...tree of death inside of us, King David, the worm inside the wicked, Psalms, there Are worms/parasites in us, when we die they consume our bodies--
to me it's like an ancient explanation of science/biology, that Then in their words of course, very different language from what we know today,
this is Why literal interpretations of Bible, NOT good idea--they just simply
miss a whole heck of a lot, and that in itself,
is the One curse, that I think we Should be wary of...a curse, put on women by human men,
not by God.
Love,
Jane p.s. while I don't concur with all of Mary Daly, one book she did write, about how medicine/misogyny all the way back to Dark Ages has used these twisted scriptures and colonized/hijacked women's autonomy in birth, using those scriptures, I strongly recommend the book, Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism, while I don't concur with Daly on all things, her analysis on the harms done to women through medical hijacking of women's bodies, esp birth, is one of The best I've read...and it really applies to Christian women in the West, just how much has been robbed from women Because of these women hating blithering pulpit womb haters, as well as the scientist control freaks/misogynists, etc. A lot of ignorance sadly on the female empowerment of birth in Ancient societies--prior to patriarchal Rome-Greece, etc. [though this varies with tribe/nation, etc but it was the erasure of womb respect actually that brought in the stronger emphasis on that whole curse distortion].
LOL, sorry about that Cara, yea that whole women are curse thing is just one of those things that yea, Hear me Roar, the lioness and/or bear over cubs just comes out...in a big way--this is where I am very much strongly still Amazon and not ashamed of it one bit,
ReplyDeleteI see So much robbed from women with these horrible twist of scriptures, and it's really just women and womb hating ignorance,
but what Does shock me a bit is how these fundies have managed to utilize what Should be, a very women centered and very spiritually empowering means such as midwifery, in the way they do,
turning it rather into a patriarchal and woman killing police type of thing, which to me is a evil on evil. Now That one does blow me away--one would Think,
that bringing these ancient women empowered beliefs would actually Empower them and create a consciousness in them that they would turn around and kick these misogynists right in the asses where they need it,
because Usually with women centered rituals this IS what happens, how these fundie cults have colonized that is tragic beyond measure,
it's Almost like they are taking bits here and there from more radical [or ancient] beliefs and adding their own doctrine to them and Erasing the very powerful women centered beliefs where many of these rituals originated From,
how they are accomplishing this is beyond me, here must be some really tight propaganda controls going on with these movements, that's for sure. See the majority of sustainable living, midwifery, etc., that I am acquainted with and know, is Hardly patriarchal,
it's very goddess centered, or earth respect centered [Native Indian] and eco feminist, no way in hell would These women, put up with the whole QF mindset or some of the other misogynist garbage that these cults are doling out to women, no way,
it just kind of boggles my mind a bit, like Good Grief, what do they do about Herbals, cuzz that's another area [going back to ancients] where there is a LOT of female empowerment,
guess I just wonder, how in the world are they combining very radical feminist leaning rituals into their ultra patriarchal male policing of women??????? Do they control what these women read?
jane
Hi Jane,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your thoughts. Forgive me, I should have quoted the curse on women. I was not speaking of the part of the curse concerning childbearing,and you are correct it is manageable to birth children.
I was speaking of the other part of the curse where women are cursed with desire toward their husband, and the ruling over them by the husband:
Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
You see, women are cursed with being ruled over by men. Much of what you speak has to do with men ruling over women in the Patriarch Movement.
But Jesus Christ has come and given us women what we do not deserve (men don't deserve it either, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God): He was crowned with thorns, spit upon, beaten, slapped and taunted, and then crucified for us women.
I am no longer ruled by men because I am ruled by Jesus Christ Whose yoke is easy, His burden is light. I no longer love my husband out of the curse of a strong desire toward him. I love my husband out of the Love of Jesus Christ because He came and died for me.
I could say so much more, and again I apologize that I didn't put the curse in writing here to make my point more clear.
Love and blessings,
Cara
@ Jane,
ReplyDeleteI hear ya. :-) SS
ps Let us hope that in the very act of carrying and giving birth to new life that God's love for and identification with women will strengthen the hearts of those under patriarchy's curse.
@ Cara,
Those scriptures point out the effects of the curse on both women AND MEN. Men are cursed with the compulsion to dominate- patriarchy! Patriarchy is the curse that keeps men alienated from understanding and experiencing the unity of the Spirit, the gracious heart of God which made one humanity, male and female.
The curse on women in that passage is their willingness to subjugate themselves to please a man. Eve's desire was no longer for God, but for the approval of a man. >:[
So much sorrow, so much evil, so much ugliness in that one verse. And for much of modern American evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, this curse is taught as the "will of God". Blech.
Christ has redeemed us from the curse! Now both male and female can be free to accept love from God as the highest good in our lives! We are set free to serve one another in love, speak the truth to one another in love, bear each his own burden as well bear with one another in love.
Jesus, your love is all the healing the world needs. Please help your people turn away from the curse and from propagating the curse, and become the blessing of Spirit-filled life bearers you redeemed us to be!
2 Cor 3: 5,6..17
Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life...
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
yea I think the word 'curse' Then, didn't mean what it has been construed as Today...
ReplyDeleteyou see I don't know, hard to explain but when God took me into observing nature [guess you could say I'm like hippie or something lol] and into observing Native/Ancient Indigenous or Indian beliefs, which I strongly adhere to leaning more towards these days after Numerous confirmations I've seen in the Word of Life, both OT and NT,
I just don't see the definitions the same anymore, like with the whole curse thing...and Yesterday, God showed me something else, that was just So cool,
before I begin, yes you are correct, the fruit of that tree of good/evil [in nature life/death, death being the decay/recycling of life that People didn't have any business Using because for Power, wisdom, it's a type of sorcery and it will produce death/spiritual, because the Love/Life isn't there, etc] did yes bring a Perversion, what we call Curse, onto humanity, onto the world/nature, etc.,
we are to Rise above this..only in Jesus can we do this because HE is the TREE OF LIFE,
I do believe this, that this world [like the Lakota's teach] is a learning school, with Choice, we can choose love/Jesus or we can choose self/power, putting this in simplistic terms, as to Why the Lord God did it this way,
how can we know Love without Forgiveness?
Anyhow...there is also a dialectic through this process, that can go in many directions at same time--hard to explain here, but yesterday, I was writing in the dirt [outside], God said write Love,
the opposite of Love is 'evol' [evil?] then I wrote Evolve, Ev Love,
Revolve, revolution, EV Lover
anyway, that's what God showed me...to those who have ears let them hear...
it's really mind blowing to see it, LOL, yea these words used over and over by those who are trying to transform through law/religion, ARE DEATH,
dark sentences. Without Love, there is no power, no empowerment, nothing, just lifeless existence,
with fear, guilt, etc. We forget, the Lord God created All of it, in nature we See it, if we observe, reason we Don't see it,
we are disconnected, we kill life for 'things', rather than depend on God the Life Giver, etc., the other 'curse' or Perversion of the Fall,
that disconnect. I asked God, why did you let this disconnect happen,
Choice, who wants a E Lover that is forced, a robot, that isn't Love, Love does not push/force itself...it is a choice,
the Entire Word of Life, is LOVE, always has been, Love is what Rises above all perversions and curses, in Christ Jesus, we have to walk In this, it is yes a type of death, like losing that shell, that skin, IF we LOVE HIM, we will choose this, to not shrink back from death...[Revelations]
to those who have eyes, let them see....
love,
Jane
Oh Amen Jane. And as we were reading Revelation 22 this morning during devotion, I was struck with these verses from the very last chapter of the Bible:
ReplyDeleteRevelation 22:1-4
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Oh my what a blessed understanding. There shall be no more curse, no more, no more. I worship the Lord, for His mercies, His Love, His grace endure forever and ever!
It helps me to realize this when I have to face such terrible things as what are contemplated in this blog post. Jesus has overcome the world.
Blessings and love,
Cara
Hi Lewis,
ReplyDeleteWhile what I have to offer is in fact a very non-Christian point of view (I am an ex-cultist, so I hope you might understand why I am no longer Christian), which I hope does not make me unwelcome in the context of this blog, I feel the need to say that Geoff is by far not the first to think of this. I have some stories that are so shocking, I have literally had to keep evidence just to convince my own self that it's real.
The cult I grew up in, known as IBLP or ATI and run by a man named Bill Gothard, has already exchanged many, many handshakes with our US government. Their network is a smooth, underground, well-oiled cult machine that as I say, I am fully aware that I would be scoffed at by just about everyone if I told what I saw. This is why I almost never do, nor do any others even when I tried to get them to speak out. The cult has a law school established, training members to defend and push for their cultic views, some scary political names on their board of directors (which last I checked is public, feel free to Google IBLP or ATI and I am sure with minimal digging the board of directors will become evident), judges who've shaken hands with them and given over "delinquents" (for very minor offenses) to them to be brainwashed and abused for months on end in Indianapolis, contracts with the state as childcare facility in Oklahoma (program has since been dismantled as many are in the cult probably to save face), some kind of program taking orphans from Russia and brainwashing them...the list goes on and on and on.
And here's the scariest part, the one I had to keep a brochure and evidence from just to convince my own self in days since that it ever happened at all because it's so shocking...My group swooped in and with our efficient, essentially free labor, we cleaned up the last bits of a project, a large building that was purchased and restored - something the cult is highly adept at. In Little Rock, Arkansas, hands were shaken between Bill Gothard himself and city officials, and the police department moved into OUR cult-owned building. We hosted their entire police station. Us, the cult. My own group was told very severely that we were to not speak to anyone, just be cheerful and reply short and sweet when spoken to and do not identify ourselves or elaborate - we went to the formal dinner and helped serve and such but lurked silently and hung back in the crowd afterward, and I watched Bill Gothard from some distance as he gave a speech. I have a brochure to this day with his name on it and the names of city officials, as well as a simple keychain from one of the police officers in the department. (Comment to be continued due to character limit)
(continued) In closing... This stuff goes deep. Geoff, I'm afraid, is coming in late. Bill Gothard dreamed it up a long time ago, and his well oiled cult machine runs smoothly beneath the surface. There is no single commune to be easily pointed out and noticed, and their "training centers" are simple huge industrial-looking buildings, converted hospitals and clean cut business-like places. Their members are not self evident but by the subtlest of signs, and their programs are recycled over and over again under different names with slight changes, even outsourced or moved if they gain too much attention. One such program I was forced to be involved in (I would rather not elaborate just yet) was dismantled and moved out to Australia, where it functions in two or three places there. A large investigation in Indianapolis, complete with media involvement, even vanished as if into thin air. The truth is far more frightening than this post implies. I myself, and from what I can tell, many other ex-members, live in a silent unspoken fear because this cult works so well on an international level and yet remain such a silent giant... And don't get me started on what they call the ALERT men, a strange thing that personally I never knew much about, who have their own military-style uniforms and methods, perform exercises and work in boot camp style, etc. (because we had no sons in our own family, just daughters, which in such a cult are considered less than men of course... we really didn't know much of anything about what ALERT really was, we just saw them marching and doing exercises at various gatherings within the cult). When the space shuttle Columbia disaster took place, for example, they were enlisted to help gather pieces. I wish I knew more about this strange militia-like force, and it seriously troubles me wondering why a cult, especially one as frightening and rife with horrors as our own, should feel any need to have it.
ReplyDeleteSo...this doesn't surprise me in the least. I sort of just shake my head at it. Geoff isn't the first, by any means, to dream of filtering into the government and establishing a sort of dominion. What scares me is how no one knows that this is going on, right now, today. All in the name of Bill Gothard.
(continued) In closing, this stuff goes deep. So Geoff, I'm afraid, is coming in late. Bill Gothard dreamed it up a long time ago, and his well oiled cult machine runs smoothly beneath the surface. There is no single commune to be easily pointed out and noticed, and their "training centers" are simple huge industrial-looking buildings, converted hospitals and clean cut business-like places. Their members are not self evident but by the subtlest of signs, and their programs are recycled over and over again under different names with slight changes, even outsourced or moved if they gain too much attention. One such program I was forced to be involved in (I would rather not elaborate just yet) was dismantled and moved out to Australia, where it functions in two or three places there. A large investigation in Indianapolis, complete with media involvement, even vanished as if into thin air. The truth is far more frightening than this post implies. I myself, and from what I can tell, many other ex-members, live in a silent unspoken fear because this cult works so well on an international level and yet remain such a silent giant... And don't get me started on what they call the ALERT men, a strange thing that personally I never knew much about, who have their own military-style uniforms and methods, perform exercises and work in boot camp style, etc. (because we had no sons in our own family, just daughters, which in such a cult are considered less than men of course... we really didn't know much of anything about what ALERT really was, we just saw them marching and doing exercises at various gatherings within the cult). When the space shuttle Columbia disaster took place, for example, they were enlisted to help gather pieces. I wish I knew more about this strange militia-like force, and it seriously troubles me wondering why a cult, especially one as frightening and rife with horrors as our own, should feel any need to have it.
ReplyDeleteSo...this doesn't surprise me in the least. I sort of just shake my head at it. Geoff isn't the first, by any means, to dream of filtering into the government and establishing a sort of dominion. What scares me is how no one knows that this is going on, right now, today. All in the name of Bill Gothard.
Anonymous...Thanks for your comments, and I welcome discussion from people of all persuasions, so you're very welcome here.
ReplyDeleteI can honestly say that I don't doubt anything you just typed.
I believe it. I've also heard stories from different people regarding physical and sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteEx-ATI/IBLP member here again... Hillary, if you mean within my cult, yes. Absolutely. I spent some time trying to hunt down fellow ex-members and get more to speak out, which as I mentioned earlier, failed. But during that time I found and heard multiple stories like that. I also have high suspicions which of course I cannot confirm, about Bill Gothard himself. I don't know, I'm hesitant to accuse of such heinous things and again I cannot confirm, so just take the following at face value I suppose.
ReplyDeleteI recall being at one of the higher-level (for lack of better word) "training centers" once, located in Michigan... Bill Gothard had singled out, for some reason, a boy who was about 10 to 12 years old. He said that God had potential for him or some such thing, and that he was going to personally "disciple" (mentor) this boy for a time. The two were never apart, and I'm sorry to say this, but that boy didn't look particularly happy and Gothard himself was...strange. Just, weird. If memory serves, they departed in a small plane alone from the air strip located on the property (alone, that is, aside from Bill's usual assistant or two, being a cult leader he is always surrounded and waited on hand and foot). I do remember the plane, for sure, as one or two in my particular small subgroup were really excited and snapped pictures. But I could swear I remember Gothard basically saying "Want to fly in a plane?" or something like that to the boy. I remember 100% that it was just too creepy for words.
That aside, there are many stories of abuse that gets swept under the rug or even blatantly blamed on the victim!!! It's sick, sick stuff. ATI/IBLP is full of horror stories; I'm only shocked that the denial runs so very deep among members and often even ex-members...
Besides denial I think it is from the sheer lack of any ability to substantiate/prove these things and be believed. It's daunting when you're one little girl or one little boy against a behemoth. Perhaps one day someone will come forward or some savvy investigative journalist will pick this up. Those who I have spoken to (and for the record, who have never give any reason for doubting them, based on their character and integrity as individuals) reiterate how overwhelming and 'impossible' it would be to expose the truth without some kind of miracle.
ReplyDeleteEx-ATI/IBLP anonymous, I believe you.
ReplyDeleteMy dad was given Botkin's CDs as a present, so he listened to them and drew out his own plan.
ReplyDeleteIt involved all of his children, children-in-law, and grandchildren and grandchildren-in-law (... and on down the 200 year scale) learning/being taught Biblical (Koine) Greek like we were and preferably at a young age (my sister and I were 12, some of the other kids began younger, but were not able to understand fully yet the complexity of grammar/syntax/word structure/etc.)
All future young men coming to court my sister were informed of this requirement and to my knowledge some actually bought a book and began learning. I am not sure how he meant to enforce this with his daughters-in-law, but I am sure he would make a plan when the time came that he had any.
I find your words amazing, because even though I am "out" too many parts of me are still captive to the old ways that were drilled into me. I love your blog because you highlight things that I can change on and remind me of areas that I would not think of on my own.
Keep it up!
DoaHF
TO Ex-ATI/IBLP member here again,
ReplyDeleteI believe you, not only that, but this,
"...childcare facility in Oklahoma (program has since been dismantled as many are in the cult probably to save face), some kind of program taking orphans from Russia and brainwashing them...the list goes on and on and on."
the children, Russia, are Monarchs,
how do I know this? Well I've hinted here numerous times, I too don't divulge much because it would take months to explain, I was born in D.C., Venus on the wall--ok, my father's family works for gov,
you see it's trade off, children, blood sacrifices, blood letting, it IS spiritual, one of the most powerful fronts IS religion, Christianity [this goes all the way back to 300 A.D., Paul & John warned of this back in 60-70 A.D.],
it's Also in the secular AND beware, a lot of the 'treatment' for survivors [or those who didn't survive and are so split, etc] is also a FRONT, the psychology and psychiatry, it's to keep control of the 'pawns',
ever heard of Illuminati? Well it's REAL, ok, it's not just some conspiracy, but there are many deviations or well how to put this, there are those who are actually Responsible or in the matrix so to speak who are exposing 'bits' of the Illuminati to steer the masses [or those handled] to blame certain segments of society, mostly Christians/Jews [esp Jews] and any who do not conform to the intended agenda, etc., eg free thinkers, so forth,
these Monarchs are children [in Russian videos of orphans, you'll see the monarch butterfly in the bottom corner, monarch butterflies, symbolism, goes all the way back to the cults of Egypt, ok], there is a LOT to this,
what makes it hard is when seeing it to also see how God is over all, Why would this be happening? Well because of what humanity has chosen, it's like a door invite, ok, what humanity adheres to in heart, what humanity loves,
this is Why God said in OT, not to worship other 'gods', HE didn't DENY their existence,
that is KEY there, but not to worship them...serve them or do their ways, one of the biggest ways Was child sacrifice/abuse, orgies and then children born/abandoned [orphaned] and then Those children, were vulnerable to abuse/blood letting,
it's WHO wants that blood and why, OK, this goes to the spiritual, all the way to the Top--including military,
it's WAY bigger than just Gothard, believe me,
you can email me, janedoethreads7@hotmail.com,
if you want to talk. These abuses are going to get a whole lot worse, and more widespread.
Jane
TO Ex-ATI/IBLP member here again,
ReplyDeleteI don't feel comfortable exposing a lot here, but when I say it's not just Gothard, it's in Catholic [has been for eons], Jesuits, Mainstream, via masonry, etc., monarchs are children vulnerable, or given over by parents/families either members of the cult forces [this is Satanism ok, bottom line] or who have traded off for power, etc., these children are being soul split, so that altars [spiritual forces/gods] can utilize them for a much larger agenda,
think of this world as one big huge prison complex, ok, but in physics/spiritual, that has numerous different sub-cells,
with the warden, who wants power to rule/and overtake the big warden over all[who isn't really a warden] who is given a time To rule,
also as the testing of what is in all individuals, what those individuals choose. This warden does not care about free will, why God said, in OT do not sacrifice children to Molech, why God allowed Israel to be taken over--
all in all it's what humanity chooses to Love, and in that love they kill life, destroy nature, all of nature has life that gives, so in an odd way humanity is it's own warden,
there IS a way to overcome the 'altars' and that is to choose, inside one's own universe [inner spiritual] to choose Love, to Love, to overcome evil, we overcome evil with good,
Holocaust survivors who did survive with souls intact Did so by choosing inside themselves to love/create their own worlds inside that was ruled with love--They survived,
those who chose hate did not.
I speak as a survivor, who has had to Personally war against the 'altars' and still does, for years I was controlled/lived for them EVEN WHEN,
I thought I was Christian...but it Was Jesus who saved me and brought me out of the darkness,
not Christianity, ok, but Jesus, I do not attend church [nor will I ever] or have anything to do with the institutional christianity which, little clue for you,
christian-ani-ty, anti christ
write me
Love,
Jane
God help us.
ReplyDelete((((Anonymous))))I ask you to forgive us, Anonymous. I wish I could hug you in person. I pray God will show you His Perfect Love in spite of the horror of what you have been through as a result of "Christianity".
Thank you for being brave and sharing. I believe you.
Thank you Jane.
Anonymous ex-ATI...If you'd be comfortable doing so, please contact me via the link at the top of the page. Completely up to you, though.
ReplyDeleteDoaHF...Thanks for the encouragement. For the record, I'm very proud of you for the steps you're taking with your life.
ReplyDeleteI hope anon-ati does contact you, Lewis. I'm preparing a series about this very subject. I think raising awareness of this is so important...
ReplyDeleteAnon-ATI here again.
ReplyDeleteHillary, in answer to the following:
"Besides denial I think it is from the sheer lack of any ability to substantiate/prove these things and be believed. It's daunting when you're one little girl or one little boy against a behemoth. Perhaps one day someone will come forward or some savvy investigative journalist will pick this up. Those who I have spoken to (and for the record, who have never give any reason for doubting them, based on their character and integrity as individuals) reiterate how overwhelming and 'impossible' it would be to expose the truth without some kind of miracle."
I agree completely. We really do face a behemoth, and at least in my case, ATI is run very well. They aren't stupid, and they have a whole slew of lawyers and ruthless tactics I'm sure they'd be happy to use against anyone who might dare to cause a stir. Like I said, that entire investigation in Indianapolis disappeared as if it'd never happened. It's some scary stuff. I don't blame those who didn't speak out, not in the least!! I'm only sad that ATI/IBLP has caused so much wreckage and that there's total lack of justice for this kind of thing.
This all puts me in mind of Freemasonry. Making me wonder if there's a connection.
ReplyDeleteThere's an actual hit list for people speaking out against that particular antichrist. And government connections are within those demonic tribes, too.
I hope a "platform" of Christian leaders is built within Christianity so that these issues can be discussed toward the removal of antichrist from the Christian churches and toward the victims getting what they need to heal.
It is treacherous indeed when they must hide within our Christian midst. Oh I could say more. This is so anti-Bible, anti-New Testament message.
If anyone would like to "pray this out" I have just recently felt the Lord take me to Acts 20:28-32. If you would join me, I would be honored.
Cara
"This all puts me in mind of Freemasonry. Making me wonder if there's a connection."
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt it a bit, Cara. There are lots of rumors swirling around that even many VERY prominent mainstream Christians are high-ranking masons. Very shadowy.
Lewis....would you e-mail me some info if you have it?
ReplyDeleteThanks,
Cara
to_eternity@earthlink.net
Hi anon-ATI-
ReplyDeleteDo you happen to know what Gothard and Co. have planned? It sounds like they are gearing up for a government take over.
RiH
Lewis, anon-ex ati, Cara, et al.,
ReplyDeleteI tried to comment yesterday numerous times, had so much horrible fear though that I deleted, yesterday was hell day, I still have those, anon-ex ATI, your post Triggered me in such a HUGE way, and then, to top it off, a woman I support who was a sex slave for years and who writes Truth and opposes the pro-porn/pro-prostitution industry, she is having similar trigger issues that I deal with, so That triggered then to top that off, last night, over at GLP read Sandi's testimony, she's writing a book about how her being foster child With Christian Baptists who IN the church, raped her, strapped her to a cross, peed on her, all kinds of Satanic ritual abuse that I know how that goes,
and well that was IT, I just lost it, didn't think I would pull through but did, but every time I go through this abyss I think, I won't pull through This time, the hate I struggle with against God is just Unreal,
con't
mentally I tell myself This isn't who God is, but all those scriptures from OT come to me, how the Lord God says the women will be ravished, etc., all that and I just like, am murderous inside,
ReplyDeletebecause I KNOW that those forces are REAL, I've SEEN them, literally with my own eyes, I've been horribly persecuted by them all my life, through my parents [long family line, both with ties to Gov] and through para-normal, including every husband/man relationship, All had ties to some kind of occult/other 'gods' and so,
you ask if Masonry is involved, YES, but see the thing is, it's not masonry in the matter/people sense, you have to look at it in the Spiritual sense, with masonry it's the worship like universalism of all 'gods' and 'goddesses' all the way back to ancients, in my family there was 33 degree, also
in Religion, long family line in Catholic [the hard core] and that is Really related, but it's also huge in Protestant, the thing is, I think, is that the temple we are to worship in is not made with human hands, in OT, God said, when you make an altar do not use cut rock or put any tools/man's to it OR it will be defiled, etc.,
I do NOT know like how it all works in the Spiritual, or Why really, I do know, Religion, in all it's forms, is the 'transforming into an angel of light', it's not God,
God is Spirit and Truth, the thing I think is that they turned the whole following Jesus into following an Idol that is a thing,
Jesus is Way, Truth, Life, Jesus word made flesh, lived on earth the Way, Truth, Life and That is what is supposed to Grow inside of us, through the Word, until Christ be formed IN you,
this following this plastic Jesus, this Person made into the image of what Man has created, is NOT the real Jesus,
it is man. Now I have asked, more and more if Satan is really, just what is inside of us that is anti-Christ, anti-Love, anti-Mercy, etc., and son of perdition is the forming Of that, through words, deeds, etc., through man's words,
this gets into area I don't have words to describe but I've seen, through battling the darkness [darkness isn't black dark btw, darkness is not being able to see, hiding from light,truth] inside myself,
con't
battling sin, by that I mean that nature, that while the Word of God 'seed' is growing battles with that, the flesh is what Paul called it, in our members [members I also think are the elements inside our bodies/from clay, we are made from clay--elements], scripture, clay, bronze, silver, gold, etc., iron, so forth,
ReplyDeletewe Worship those things when we take from earth, make into Idols, etc., the more we worship/consume [see James] that inner strife, Anyhow,
there is so much more to this, but the Thing is, I wanted to Warn you yesterday, anon-ATI with that Alert thing you mentioned, see Genesis, the Nephalim,
and they aren't the only ones. Many Don't believe in this, but Jesus said, in the end days it will be Like the days of Noah, woe to women,
why woe to women? In the worship of aliens, the number one Cult there is working on Cloning, there are experiments [since Nazi's too] on women's wombs, question Why?
The UN has [Australian news put it out] just formed a UN liaison from Malaysia for Aliens...
Jesus said man would fear what is coming from the 'skies'
There are numerous manifestations, it's Not just masonry or the secret societies, it's those who want/lust for Power, who love idols, etc., who reject Love [not eros, remember Jesus said, they will marry and be giving in marriage, but WAS HE talking about only humans, or humans and aliens? [aliens many say are fallen angels] I don't know,
this is not a Thus saith the Lord, but this is one of those Never say never...to me I think it's very possible,
that in this Spiritual Warfare in the end, all will be made manifest...both in nature [in nature remember, it's all life, cells, fusion, atoms, etc Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the bond that fuses it all together] yes this sounds like Cabala?, there is a lot of truth In that, though I don't worship it, etc.,
Jesus was cornerstone they rejected...the element table that is huge among Nazi's and sorcery and all that, is also big among these alien worshipers, also the ones following RA that worship is huge right now [Egypt] and Sumeria,
just a lot of stuff I don't understand, but the Lord God is over all--HE created it all, that I do know, I think the time is like an hourglass, we are going backwards/counterclockwise, from A.D. birth of Jesus to backwards...the Mayans, 2012, is the Serpent, garden of Eden, the big deception,
con't
[con't see top three, sorry due to word count] anyhow, Egypt like with Ramses is where we are at now [DIA Denver, Obama saying he looked like Pharaoh, they put the death god of Egypt statute at DIA] this is HUGE with Masonry, there are underground tunnels that look like something out of Hitler's concentration camps--the Illuminati IS real,
ReplyDeletemany will serve this deception, because like Daniel says, it will promise peace, destroy with peace, daughters of women will be given over but they will not support
daughters of masonry, trafficking, child sacrifices including in religion, the false temples, that happened in the 60s,
I believe I was one of those daughters, there are many of us survivors of RA abuse, many coming out with DID and so forth--many coming out of spiritual abuse/cults claiming Christ,
anti-Christ, anti the WAY, TRUTH, LIFE,
we have been indoctrinated to worship the person, but Jesus yes a person, was also the Word, see what I am saying? Spirit,
for years I was deceived Thought I was Christian, but no way, IF you love me you will obey me Jesus said, obey what? Well what did He do?
He delivered, He healed, He loved, He was homeless, He was poor, He spent lots of time praying IN NATURE, not in buildings, He fed the poor, He taught, He spent time with people most churches don't give a second look,
the WAY, TRUTH, LIFE, John the Baptist lived in the Wilderness, ate wild honey/locusts, like the Native Indians did [Elijah, the bear, just like Native Indians], the indigenous peoples who respect Mother Earth, who respect the elements, who are not materialist, etc., yes there were tribes who got lost along the way, we All do,
but They are Still consistent in 2010 with their beliefs, where the Churchianity is NOT, and By THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM,
look at the difference in Fruits, Love Joy Peace,
the way of peace they have not known God says in Romans, but they leave misery and destruction,
Separate yourselves from them, touch not their unclean thing God says, then I'll receive you,
see religion [man's doctrines] has had it all wrong, Sound Doctrine, is just that, SOUND, to hear the Spirit,
we don't Hear because of all the Mountains of idols and debates and hates and all that that are In the way,
we ARE that wretched, poor, naked and miserable church in Revelations--God will Destroy those who destroy the EARTH, Rev...the angel will throw huge rock I think [can't recall read it days ago] into Babylon,Rev, that's comet, I am convinced of that, right into America--
America, City of Rome, Washington D.C., tied into Rome Europe, the Fornicator, Mother of Harlots, Babylon, it's Spiritual,
and our churches are false prophets...the majority of them.
To those who have ears, let them hear...it's time, to go to the wilderness, repent, sackcloth and ashes, seriously, and turn our backs on the lies of man...materialism [destruction of LIFE on earth] and Love One Another,
Jane
in the beginning, it was Tree of Life, Tree of Knowledge,
ReplyDeletein Rev it is Book of Life, the Books--taken from trees,
by those books, they were judged, those NOT in Tree of LIFE, etc., the sum of all books,
is humanity's knowledge, of good evil, Tree of LIFE, is giving LIFE,
just like nature does, Gods Word [Jesus] created nature, nature All of it, gives life, dies recycles into life over and over, cells etc., Jesus said sheeps/goats, goats Consume, sheeps give Garments, by their wool,
they Cloth the naked, love covers a Multitude of sins, consumption strips people and points out their nakedness, it's NOT being naked that is bad, it's the 'shame' that is Put on those naked, that is lack of Love, Mercy,
sum of all books, books Testifies against humanity because it's all the trees butchered, so humanity can be 'gods', they rejected God's Word, etc.,
which is Jesus, which is LIFE, giving Life, Love, Mercy,
nature does not sit there and decide who is good/evil, nature simply eats, lives, evolves, gives life--it's all interdependent, ecology, that is the personality of God, we are to be made into His likeness,
it was Never supposed to be about theology or doctrines/dogma, that is 'good and evil' that Measuring stick, that erases Love, that Strips naked, each other,
that abuses, controls, destroys
that builds up pyramids to Magnify [magnifying glass] oneself or system to something it's really Not,
we Lose it when we are busy trying to be 'good' for plastic Jesus,
and the thing is, it's So simple [the simplicity in Christ] that its deemed by Religion to be pagan or new age or a million other demonized labels,
by our Fruits...our Works, tree hands, what do they do? They give LIFE, they give oxygen and shelter birds and give food--
our Veins, blood, carries Oxygen, like Lightening, that gives Energy--to give LIFE,
the Books are opened, Book of LIFE
or sum of all books, good and evil, that measuring stick, because obsessed with good and evil means one has to strip naked, measure, judge, not LOVE, not COVER,
religion.
By their Fruits ye shall know them...I think, what will be the most Shocking thing,
is that it won't be Christians the Religion that God approves of,
but those who Lived the Way, Truth, Life, those who lived and gave life, Jesus in them,
LOVE.
Jane
I am so sorry for what you have gone through, Jane.
ReplyDeleteHeavenly Father,
I ask and pray that You will comfort all of those whom Jane represents. Help them know that God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of Love, and of Power, and of a Sound Mind in Jesus Christ.
I ask You in the Name of Jesus to get them support in prayer and in all other needs in their bodies, in their souls, and in their spirits. I ask for people to come to their aid quickly in Jesus' Name.
I ask You to make them know deeply Psalm 23, oh God. I ask you to wrap them in Your Strong Arms of Love and Deliverance from all of this evil in which they have lived.
Oh God, I cry out for these Dear Ones,
In Jesus' Name, Amen.
((((Jane))) I understand when you say freemasonry is seen more in the spirit than it is in the flesh. I am so sorry you have had to see what you have of darkness in the spirit world.
Cara