Friday, July 1, 2011

Courtship - The Crushing Weight/Wait of Emotional Ignorance

I came across this article at a forum I frequent. Although I'm gonna try, words may fail me in attempting to discuss it. The idea that "there's no such thing as a 'failed' courtship" is so far beyond ignorance that Rand McNally couldn't help it find its way back.


Let me start by saying that I pity this young lady. Sincerely and deeply. She's obviously a 2nd generation homeschooler/courter, and she probably had ZERO say in her belief system. Everything about her blog reeks of brainwashing and indoctrination, full of all the cultic buzzwords and Christianese you'd expect, lots of usage of "maiden", lots of fairy-tale/fantasy talk of love and relationships, lots of strange ideas about God and her faith, et cetera.


Poor girl.


As you can see, it was just a little over a year ago that her "courtship" ended. It was quite obviously a failure. Still, she dedicated a very emotional blog post into what amounts to an attempt to brainwash herself into thinking that what happened was all wonderful, for her good, and God's plan. Lots of religious rationalization and denial, lots of Imbibling to try and dull the pain. [although the context is a bit different, a great blog article on denial can be found here]

This girl's article represents everything that courtship is supposed to prevent - emotional attachment, and the pain it brings when a relationship fails. She's devastated. There's no denying it. If she weren't, she wouldn't have written this piece. Her courtship was a colossal failure, yet she's trying, with all her might, to rationalize all of it away as "God's will" and a good thing. Just because God, as long as we trust him, can make something good, for someone, out of the bad things that happen to us, that doesn't make those bad things "good", nor does it mean God wanted those bad things to happen.


Courtship proponents generally teach that emotional attachment can only properly occur AFTER a wedding ceremony. They seem to think there's some kind of switch that can be flipped, and all of the sudden you'll magically be able to "connect". They should know this is BS, being they impose courtship upon their children to prevent the emotional connections that happen naturally, AS GOD DESIGNED THEM TO. They try to take the emotion out of it, stressing ideas like "You love the one you marry. You don't marry the one you love." A ton of you who read here have had that one thrown at you. Whenever I hear people defending and promoting the ideas of courtship, I know they're talking out of their rear-end. You can't have it both ways. If emotion could be controlled so easily as to prevent an emotional connection prior to marriage but magically turned on after marriage, there'd be no need for a system meant to control emotion.


To just cut through the bull, people who practice and promote "courtship" are total emotional morons. Just so you don't think I'm being intentionally or unnecessarily mean...


morona person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment


When my ex expressed her devotion to me, several months after our engagement, and just weeks before our planned ceremony, her mother tearfully, pleadingly exclaimed, "It's too soon!" That's notably stupid on every imaginable level. Her mother, just like her father, is an emotional moron. They are what the P/QF paradigm has made them.


The courtship model treats emotion like a water faucet. Parents try to cap the pipe with the faucet and valve to prevent the free, natural flow of emotion. While this may seem to make sense to them, while this may seem to them to be the best way to prevent heartbreak, they've really just been duped by the promoters of the movement - the people with something to sell - they took the bait of "godliness", the hook was set, and they've been reeled in. Capping the natural flow of emotion that God placed in us just cheapens and devalues emotion - and it's the height of arrogance (not to mention ignorance) to believe that emotion is something we can turn off and on at will. Courtship doesn't prevent heartbreak. It's actually more apt to prevent genuine heartlove as it tries to control that which only God is capable of.


I look at this young lady's description of the courtship and its end...

The past few months of my life have been some of the happiest I have ever known.

God saw fit for me to enter into a courtship relationship with a young man who loves the Lord fervently and passionately desires to serve Him with his life.

However, this past Sunday, after over three months of courtship, Kelly and I decided to break off our courtship. It was truly one of the hardest things that I have ever had to do in my life BUT I know that we made the right decision. Our courtship was a success! Neither of us have any regrets and I know that God has a purpose that is so much bigger than either of us.


...and I see a person contradicting herself, contradicting and denying her own emotions, as if somehow this makes it all ok and "godly". She goes on...

Does this mean that it still doesn't hurt? Uh. NO! BUT, I have realized something:
I am not devastated.
The reason why is because Kelly did not complete me. 
Jesus Christ completes me.
Because Jesus Christ completes me.
I am hurt.
But not devastated.
I KNOW that I can do all things through CHRIST Who strengthens me!


Yes, faith should (ideally) remain constant despite human relationship and human error, but she's lying to herself. She IS devastated. If she weren't, she'd have never written this piece. More from her article...

Our courtship, although it is now ended, was a SUCCESS.
Now, I am finding the freedom to dream again. 


Lying to herself yet again. She hasn't discovered any "freedom" to dream. She's been left with the option of dreaming to survive the heartbreak. Period. For her to deny that she'd developed deep feelings for this guy would be an outright lie. In her world, when you hurt, the only option to escape it is to dream. What choice does she have, being that her belief system demands that she look at this breakup as the hand of God? To continue to love this guy would be "sinful" and "selfish".

I think that the Lord wanted to know if I really believed what I had been teaching my girls in my Friday night Bible studies.

I had to CHOOSE.

I CHOSE Jesus.


Total BS. Imbibling to numb her pain. I don't know the details of how and why her courtship ended, but I'm fairly positive Jesus had nothing to do with it, and as always, I hate seeing Jesus get the blame for things that people do. I very seriously doubt the guy told her, "Look, it's either me or Jesus, but you can't have us both!"


The rest of her piece is a bunch of religious rationalization and is symptomatic of religious addiction, not that there was any doubt that she's addicted. 


A few weeks after this piece, she met her new man, and about a month ago, they got married - and they've already announced that she's expecting their first child. Quick work. Reminds me of my situation. Shortly after my ex disappeared and eventually broke off our engagement, both my family and my former busmates can verify that I laid out to them exactly how everything would play out. I'd already seen the playbook in the situation with her older sister (parts 5 and 6 of "The Joke Was On Me" detail some of this). When asked what I expected to happen, my response was as follows...


"It's gonna take 'em a bit longer than with her sister. She loves me. Deeply. She can't just repress that in a matter of a couple of weeks or a month. It'll take a little time for them to sufficiently demonize me, because she knows who I am and loves me. Within about 4 months, her dad will push her into a relationship with a guy named ***. He's available and willing, and he'll shower her with attention and affection, and in her ignorance and vulnerability she'll misread it, accepting her family's interpretations of all of it as her own. The fact that her family approves will be a BIG deal. She'll see it as "God intervening" and such. About a year after that, they'll get married."


I was off by a couple of weeks on the start of their relationship, and off by a couple of months on their marriage. Like I said, I'd seen it all before. I knew what to expect. The marriage she's in will survive, as she'll "love" this guy dutifully, despite not having the emotion in her bank account to cover the checks, but I pity her the day when she emotionally awakens and can no longer repress not just her own emotions, but what she did to me.




As to the young lady from the linked blog, having been married to her "prince" for less than a month, there are already red flags for the emotional health of her marriage...


Truly-our love was
worth
waiting for!
Have the last
few weeks
been easy?
Honestly, they
have not been what
I thought they
would be.
I went through a
bout of depression
that really
was absolutely horrid.
The enemy really
attacked and sad
to say-I really was not
easy to live with
and yet-
Jason remained
(and remains)
ever patient
and oh so loving!
I am so blessed.
So very very blessed.


Dear Lord. Married to her dream man, her "prince", the man God has for her, and already suffering from depression? Practically immediate depression? Uh oh. Maybe this will help explain it...


So question to all
you married ladies out there:
How did you adjust
to being newly married
and did any of you
struggle with the
"I need to be a perfect wife"
mentality?
I can not
praise the Lord enough for
my precious husband!
He proves his love
for me each and everyday!
To think that
even though now
he REALLY knows
the real me
and yet,
he loves me in spite of me.
What a picture
of our relationship
with our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ!


Ugggh. She didn't marry the man she loved. She's trying to dutifully love the man she married, and she's using my favorite analogy (SA), a "picture" of Jesus and the church. Good grief. Poor girl. Emotionally ignorant. Quite obviously religiously addicted and surrounded by other junkies, striving to be "godly". She loved the other guy. Poor girl. And poor guy - now married to a wife who is trying to concoct and exhibit emotion for him that she doesn't genuinely feel, loving him only "dutifully". And poor baby to be born into such an emotionally dysfunctional, religiously addicted dynamic in a few months.


[A few more of my thoughts on courtship can be found here]


If you practice or promote "courtship", you've either willfully chosen to be ignorant and an emotional moron, or you've been forced to be ignorant and an emotional moron. Don't be surprised if you and your heart get crushed under the weight of that choice, whether the choice was your own or made for you. Life itself will be FULL of heartbreak, regardless of whatever formula you use to navigate the waters. You can't prevent it.


You can't love a spouse from the outside-in, and trying to do so only diminishes any "faith" in God that you claim and makes your heart meaningless. That's YOUR effort of human vanity, and it has nothing to do with God.

73 comments:

  1. For everyone's sanity over there in courtship-land, I kinda miss the courtly romance days of Eleanor of Aquitaine when everyone married for connections, land, power, and duty: women were pawns (or queens) in the chess game of life and no one thought otherwise. Love was for passing a long winter's night after the succession had been assured. At least the system was honest and not this bullshit-dressed-up-as-sacramental-fairy-tale.

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  2. At least the system was honest and not this bullshit-dressed-up-as-sacramental-fairy-tale.

    Ain't that the truth.

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  3. Unfortunately, I got nuttin' from my wife in the way of societal status and she the same with me. I sure as heck got more than that. I love this culture right now, when I can dote on my wife and she can dote on me, pretending at times, that we are the only two in the world that exist - no political bull**** to navigate through in the process.

    I'm with you though, Sandra.

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  4. "At least the system was honest and not this bullshit-dressed-up-as-sacramental-fairy-tale."
    Sandra that was such a good quote it needed to be quoted one more time.

    Why do these people insist on making a god out of marriage?

    Oh BTW...Sandra...I hope you don't mind...I quoted you in my latest post (about Hillary's book) Once again a great quote (and I linked your site).

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  5. When disaster strikes, many people try to find a "reason" for why it happened. Frequently the "reason" is some lesson that God is supposedly trying to teach like to be more faithful, pray more or read the Bible more often. But the book of Job states clearly that on this side of eternity, we may never find an explanation.

    God did not kill my husband or end this young woman's courtship to teach us a lesson or to punish us for not being good enough. We do not know why these bad things happened. All we can do is carry on knowing that when we reach Heaven, things will make more sense than they do now.

    Nor should we deny the grief we feel when bad things happen. There is no sin in griefing and the fact that we are grieving does not mean we are lacking faith. The young woman was obviously very hurt when her courtship ended. I hope the young woman is able to build a happy marriage, especially now that she is expecting a baby. But I will admit to being skeptical that she can do this when she denied her feelings of grief. Or perhaps she grieved privately and the blog was more for appearances.

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  6. Anyone else notice something?

    "God saw fit for me...

    However, this past Sunday, after over three months of courtship, Kelly and I decided to break off our courtship. It was truly one of the hardest things that I have ever had to do in my life BUT I know that we made the right decision."

    Where was God in this break-up decision?

    And why did they break up???

    What was the other decision other than choosing Christ?

    While I won't say the "courtship" itself was a "colossal failure" due to the lack of evidence, I will say something happened that she/her dad couldn't reconcile with...

    Just sayin...

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  7. Can I be honest? I am NOT a promoter of courtship and am currently healing from the junk I imbibed as a teen when I dabbled in patriarchy junk, but as a newlywed, I'm definitely struggling with what you might call 'depression.' Is this due to my husband? No. He is the best part of my life right now, my steadfast lover and always, always tells me that I'm the perfect wife for him.

    All the same, I'm struggling with being okay with not being the 'perfect wife' that I can picture in my head because of my teenage years in patriarchy stuff. I'm struggling with adapting to married life and I'm struggling with the expectations I have of myself. I could very well have written most of this excerpt:

    [i]So question to all
    you married ladies out there:
    How did you adjust
    to being newly married
    and did any of you
    struggle with the
    "I need to be a perfect wife"
    mentality?
    I can not
    praise the Lord enough for
    my precious husband!
    He proves his love
    for me each and everyday!
    To think that
    even though now
    he REALLY knows
    the real me
    and yet,
    he loves me in spite of me.
    What a picture
    of our relationship
    with our Lord and Savior
    Jesus Christ![/i]

    Just because someone writes like this, doesn't mean that they are necessarily married to a 'second-best' or a man they don't really love truly.

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  8. I agree that courtship does not protect a girl from "giving her heart away." In fact, nothing can.

    About six and a half years ago I fell in love with a life-long friend. We never dated or courted, but that didn't keep from "giving my heart away." He is now seriously dated another girl. I keep hoping something happens and he doesn't marry her cause I'm still in love with him.

    Many single, well meaning friends have told me I had a choice and could have chosen or kept myself from falling in love. I'm waiting to see what they say after they fall in love. =)

    No amount of teaching or rules can keep a heart safe, it makes the choice. And even if he does marry the other girl or someone else, I'm not sorry I fell in love with him.

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  9. @betweenthestacks...It's not just the section of her particular post I quoted that brings me to the conclusion I reached, but all of the backstory - and my own observations from my experience.

    This girl settled for less than her heart wanted. She loved the first guy - and for some arbitrary reason (it obviously wasn't his "godly" character given how she lauds him)it ended, and it's probably a choice she wouldn't have made had it been up to her. This choice was most likely made by someone among her father, her ex, or her ex's family. The only "godly" thing for her to do was to take it on the chin and accept it as God's will.

    Anytime a single person, particularly one on the rebound from a break-up, starts talking about being "complete in Christ", that's code for "I'm lonely, I'm desperate, and I'll soon jump into another relationship waaaay before I'm ready." It never fails. In the patriarchy world, for a myriad of reasons, the rebound usually ends in marriage - unless the guy is wise to what's going on. This one was/is just as emotionally ignorant as she was/is, and obviously just as religiously drunk.

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  10. This girl doesn't have the freedom to say that she was devastated or that the courtship forumla didn't work or was a failure. That would discredit the formula. Her reasoning for what courtship is, "to discover if the person is the one God would have you to marry,"...how is that any different from dating?

    And I have to admit that her blog is very difficult to read with all those words bolded and in all caps, as well as cut up into a few words and centered. It's annoying, though not as annoying as what she actually writes.

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  11. Lewis - in response to your comment to betweenthestacks, I remember when my father told me to break the relationship off with my now-hubby. It wasn't long after that, possibly a month or even less, that my parents started talking with long-time family friends about setting a relationship up with their son and I. It was as if my parents were on the rebound by proxy. That was when I told my now-hubby to come get me right away. I left home 5 days later with a ring on my finger.

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  12. I love the portrayal of emotion like turning on and off a faucet, hehe, doesn't quite work that way.
    I just don't understand how you could possibly go through a relationship, even a short one, without any emotion. I wouldn't go into a relationship seriously...heading toward marriage, if I had absolutely no feelings for the guy.
    This reminds me of a situation I was in, where a guy expressed interest and we were deciding whether to pursue the relationship more seriously or not and while we did not, my friend, his sister was concerned that while I said I liked him, that I was not yet emotionally attached to him in anyway, cuz that would just be wrong! Honestly, yes, there were feelings although I was not technically in love with him yet. So that statement made me feel very guilty. Thankfully, neither of my parents were raised in the strict courtship=no feelings/no hurt/no mistakes etc. mentality and while we may call it courting, that is just a name, its what your intentions are that matter.

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  13. Julie--
    Quotes from me and links to my blog (or my FB Page) are always good (I wouldn't even mind if you cleaned up my typos!). Thanks! I liked your post and found even more stuff to think about from Hillary's interview with you.

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  14. if you've never loved at all, not even puppy love, how do you know when you REALLY love?

    i mean, i thought i loved my first ever boyfriend. 20 years later, i know i didn't - infatuated with, sure; liked a whole lot, of course - but i was only able to know "love" in comparison to how i felt with other people. when it comes to ROMANTIC love, you don't HAVE a pattern [you can know you love your siblings by comparing it to how you feel about your parents; you can know you love your friends because of how you love your siblings - but NONE of these are romantic!] and... i just don't *get* it. it's like some ultimate level of virginity, not only must your body have never been "touched", but your SOUL must be as untouched - and that means, in a way, that you don't even KNOW HOW to love!

    obviously, one can LEARN, even with one person. but you can't love a person if they aren't actually a PERSON to YOU. and courtship places all participants upon pedastals, so that they can NEVER see the other person AS a person.

    how can you love a person you HAVEN'T MET? even if you've physically met, in courtship there's no "emotional meeting" - so where does the love COME FROM?!


    yeesh - i don't think i'll *ever* understand the point of courtship

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  15. I really loved this post. I used to read that blog until a while ago when I decided it's not helping my mental state to read her fundamentalist BS.
    I was in a courtship as well and I was totally behind the "not giving your heart away" and LOVE as an emotion is ungodly mentality. I was actually very happy when my parents presented me a man whom I didn't love, thinking it was the best that could happen to me.
    Back then it seemed like such a normal, good thing to do, reading my own words now and remember my thoughts is shocking. I can't even explain why I felt so good about it...

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  16. Lewis. I am very curious as to what your advice would be to this young woman now, having made the choices she has-- how to move forward, how to heal?

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  17. The coercive religious group I was in was pre-courtship movement. They preached a "dating revelation" which meant you didn't date. And the elders of the church were ultimately in control of whether you could get married or not.

    But they had these factors that were better than courtship:

    1. You were required to marry a guy in the church-- no, this wasn't good in and of itself, but church members were encouraged to become close friends in a brother-sister way. So you started out with friendship.

    2. You were allowed to fall in love naturally. This was spiritualized to the jargon, "God put a love in my heart for this person," but real emotion was allowed.

    3. Once you felt this love, and you went (alone) to the pastor or pastor's wife (depending on your own sex), and "submitted" the person's name for the elders to pray over, then if they approved, you were allowed to spend a lot of time with them. Chaperoned or in public places, but you did have time to get to know them well.

    One of the problems with this approach was that the parents were left completely OUT of the whole process. You weren't allowed to tell anyone, not even family members, that you were falling in love or hoping to get engaged. So when you were allowed to get engaged, it was presented to the parents as a fait accompli. Which really wasn't fair to the parents, in most cases (mine were not religious themselves, but had put a lot of love into raising me and they were not wrong to expect to be part of my life).

    But giving the parents complete control in this way is worse than the way my group made us do things. Because the obedience of the grown "child" becomes a demonstration of how "godly" the parents are. Nobody should be put in that position.

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  18. It seems to me that P/QF families are terrified of ANY kind of emotion. No matter the circumstance, emotions are bad. Must not show anger, must not give your heart away or become attached to someone of the opposite sex, etc. etc. To this day, my mother will not even watch a movie that is slightly sad and that might make her cry, because it makes her feel her emotions. Absolutely refuses to watch anything but happy, fluffy (G rated) movies. Growing up, I was made to stifle my emotions so much, that I had a very hard time emotionally bonding with my husband, and struggled with showing him love. I couldn't even verbally form the words of why I loved him. I remember stammering around when he would ask me what I loved about him the most. And now, as a parent, I struggle with being emotionally attached to my children. I love them with all my being, but SHOWING it is still difficult. Many times I find myself being physically present with them, but not emotionally. I keep everything inside, and my husband has to drag things out of me. I have much improved since we first got married, 10 years ago, but it still hits me sometimes. Does anyone else struggle with this?

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  19. Anonymous 2:27...I'll be so bold as to answer that with "I don't know". I think she's so devoted to her religious lifestyle and addictions that she'd be oblivious to how she's ended up where she has.

    If she were open-minded, I'd encourage her to meticulously examine her belief system and the choices she's made/it's made for her, I'd encourage her to find a new place to worship/gather with other Christians, and I'd encourage her to get qualified professional counseling.

    To truly "move forward" with her life, she's either gonna have to surrender to her circumstances and hope that God does something miraculous, or, she's gonna have to risk losing everything - husband, family, faith as she's known it.

    Sorry to say, I don't have a perfect answer. She's really put herself in a box.

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  20. Christy,

    There are three unspoken rules that all abusive homes share. Doesn't matter if it is because there is addiction, mental illness or religious dysfunction. These rules are in ALL abusive homes.

    Don't feel.
    Don't trust.
    Don't talk.

    A good part of healing is learning to break these rules. Therapy helps for many people, but it's a journey to even get that far because therapy is all TALKing about your FEELings with a therapist you've come to TRUST.

    My healing came through friendships (incl. my friendship with Jesus), Adult Children of Alcoholics anonymous group meetings modeled on the twelve step program (any family dysfunction qualifies you, doesn't have to be alcohol addiction), therapy, self-help books, time, all of the above and I'm actually in therapy again! EMDR this time. I highly recommend it.

    Let me encourage you that healing is a journey that takes a lifetime. Enjoy the journey! Be good to yourself for the little victories.

    And you know, if you think you are ready to try therapy, look for a provider at www.emdr.com. My husband is also going, and he is actually feeling these days (I know! It's awesome!) and able to recognize what the feelings are and talk about them. Plus he's happier than he's been in a long time; maybe ever.

    Best wishes, SS

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    Replies
    1. Christy,

      My father is an alcoholic. My mother battles depression due to years of his mental abuse and feeling unloved. I myself am lucky enough to have realized a lot of my issues earlier on in life (I'm 24) and I am trying to address them now.

      That being said, thank you so much for this post. I had never heard of EMDR before. My dad has tried so many ways to kick his addictions (cigs, booze, coffee, etc.), and he always relapses without fail. Alcoholics anonymous worked... when he actually went. Sometimes he feels like it is pointless or hopeless, and that it is too late for him. He came from an incredibly broken home, having an alcoholic father who beat his mother every. single. day., subsequently leading her to alcohol as well. My dad made many poor choices in life due to his poor upbringing and lack of guidance. I want to present the idea of EMDR to him, in the hopes that maybe he can try it and it will help him...

      Wish me luck/send positive thoughts/pray for my father!

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    2. not to be a downer, but EMDR isn't a treatment for alcoholism - it's for PTSD. if your father is an alcoholic because he has PTSD, then it could work - but if not...

      it does sound as if him having PTSD is possible - but he should definitely see a psychiatrist and get checked.

      Delete
    3. Substance abuse is often an attempt to self-medicate for PTSD and depression. I have yet to meet an addict yet who hadn't suffered some kind of early trauma.

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    4. respectfully;

      *I* have PTSD.

      now, i've been given opiods since i was 9, and got to watch a specific aunt do heroin all my life, and my mother's family is all Cherokee, so you can guess the rate of alcoholism THERE, but... i've never abused any med, and resisted the meds i need to for years and YEARS.

      many people who suffer from substance abuse have PTSD, this is true. the other way... not so much. and really, not every alcoholic or drug user has PTSD [not helped by the resistance of many mental health professionals to labeling PTSD correctly in people who haven't been in the military, and a further resistance to labeling people with, say, BPD as PTSD because at least PTSD can be TREATED... our mental health system is a MESS...]

      that's why i said "therapy and a proper diagnoses is essential". i have a therapist. that therapist does NOT give me EMDR [thank Deity! i'm still not past Old Spice. a whiff of that, and i'm swinging before i realize what's going on. EMDR: not for the faint of heart. anyway] but i very much need to see the therapist after i do EMDR. triggers are hard to root out, and it's hard to find them all, and if one is self-medicating PTSD, you've got even MORE problems. and EMDR? will NOT treat alcoholism.

      i really, really wasn't being snarky. i've been doing EMDR for a freaking DECADE, and i'm still more miles away from "okay" than i can see. it's not quick, it's not easy, it's not pretty...

      and it's utterly, utterly useless if you don't have PTSD or something highly similar. considering that most of the addicts *I* know are depressive, bi-polar/manic depressive, or have a personality disorder...

      and i have all but one class of a BS in psychology, if 15 years out of date. if i can see the issues, one would hope that a practicing mental health professional would - except they're ALL over-worked, under-paid, over-booked, over-paper-worked, over-mediated by higher-ups, and answer to too many people. it's harder to be a competent mental health person than a general practice doctor. because this country, this society, doesn't take most mental health problems SERIOUSLY. only some Asian countries are worse; hell, Saudi Arabia treats mentally ill patients better than we in the US do!

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    5. Respectfully denelian, EMDR can be used for a lot more things than just PTSD, as will EFT and other NLP methods. It all depends on what and how you do them and the skill and training AND proper application of these things.

      Not all that is labeled BPD is BPD, not all PTSD is PTSD, not all dyslexia is dyslexia, not all autism is autism.

      If doing EMDR is hard for you, your therapist or whoever is doing might be doing it wrong. Different methods require near zero stress, and no, I am not talking about hypnotism.

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    6. First off, great affection for you denelian! Sorry to know things are still so rough after so long.

      I do have to wonder if your EMDR technician is properly trained. This web site lists practitioners by area and level of training:

      http://emdr.com/

      I am sure I was told (and experienced) that there is absolutely no need to know all or any of your triggers. I started out with five traumas I could remember as most significant. (Funny how the brain blocks things out.) In beginning EMDR while recalling those memories, other memories popped up that I knew were more significant. It worked that way for the whole two years of therapy with two different therapists.

      My therapists took great lengths to establish a calming, peaceful "place" to return in my imagination, locking all the memories away in a container with the words "Nothing comes out except for my healing" on the lid. Then I locked the container up, and in my mind returned to my sanctuary, all the while strengthening the connections with the hand buzzers. I am smiling now just thinking of it. A code phrase goes along with it, and it is amazing how I can be instantly transported to that serene location by saying/thinking those words.

      Anyway, if what I say seems inappropriate, please forgive me. I do NOT want to add your distress; sounds like you have more than your share already. I hope this emdr directory will be helpful, if not to you then someone else. Peace and good will, SS.

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    7. Treasure Seeker;

      EMDR is hard for me for a lot of reasons, not least of which is because my triggers are mostly amped up instinctual responses, and they're rational, so getting past that is difficult. EMDR has been the method that worked best.

      my point - that you agreed with - is that not everything is diagnosed correctly, that many people will diagnose one thing as something else because something else is either "more treatable" or is better viewed, and that EMDR is not for alcoholism or substance abuse. it can treat the underlying disorder, if there *IS* one, if it's one of the disorders that responds to EMDR.

      ShadowSpring;

      i'm not offended, you're trying to be helpful, how can i be upset at that?
      EMDR is taking a long time, not least because i have to take breaks from it. i can, at best, get about 3 months out of a year. some of this stuff is from early child-hood, and as i said above are amped up instinct, and on most people would be rational response. there's more than one thing at play, too. *shrug* it takes as long as it takes, and i'm doing better than many. i know people who have been working to cure their PTSD since they got back from Vietnam.
      add in continual trauma due to physical issues and disability, and, to quote - "I'm *much* better now" :D

      Delete
    8. (((denelian))) I love the last sentence and the huge smile! Yay! <3

      Delete
    9. :D it's one of my more favorite quotes.


      we all do what we can, as we can. i may never be textbook "sane" [and really, is anyone?] but i can be in control of me. that's all i really can control, anyway. you know? snarky quotes aside, though - i *AM* much better, i know myself now, and i'm pretty much over-all happy with *WHO* i am. i look around, see who i could have been, and i'm *ecstatic* in who i am - i try to help people, try to not hurt people [not the same thing] and make positive change in the world. all i can do is what i can do - but you ever watch one of those short mockumentaries about the spin a single smile or frown can have? i go for the spin of a smile, whenever i can

      i'm babbling, sorry.

      thanks for the hugs and hearts - nice to know people *do* get my jokes and quotes, sometimes :) ♥

      Delete
  21. I've dealt today with several people who've jerked their knees so violently upon reading this article that they've nearly torn their ACLs.

    First of all, you can't keep one foot across the fence in fundamentalist legalism or legalistic beliefs yet recoil at the label of legalism and expect to be taken seriously.

    Second, before you hurt someone, or even yourself, in jerking your knee - being new to this blog, having only read this piece (and maybe not even all of it), do me the courtesy of finding the link at the top of the page that says...

    "New? Confused? Angry at the content?...Click here"

    ...before you go getting all offended.

    And another piece of advice...Before you attach yourself to the "godly" ideals of neo-conservative Christian homeschooling, courtship, and the like, do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the motives of the people at the forefront of these movements. You might be seriously surprised at what you find.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Shadowspring 4:17,

    I read the first paragraph after the 3 rules: "Therapy helps for many people, but it's a journey to even get that far because therapy is all TALKing about your FEELings with a therapist you've come to TRUST." and my first thought was, "hey, you're describing a FRIEND." Then I read your next sentence.

    The bible speaks highly of friends. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't read much about friends or friendships on Lewis' blog when he talks about the QF/P movement. What's the view on friendship?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Steve...Are you speaking of friendship in terms of helping people heal from abusive situations?

    If so...I think friendships are an invaluable safety net, but in many cases, simply aren't qualified or capable to do more than support a person as they go through the process.

    I look at Job's friends, who although ALL of their counsel to him was wrong, DID bother to sit quietly and commiserate with him for a week before speaking. (not sure how literal to take the week - but just being with Job was their greatest contribution)

    In my situation, the most valuable friendships have proven to be those who supported me despite my situation being way above their pay-grade. They really had nothing, verbally, to offer, because it was all so crazy they didn't understand it, but just knowing they loved me and supported me was significant.

    If you're talking about inside the movement itself, I'll defer to some of the ladies here.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I edited the New Reader's Guide to add a tidbit to the courtship section. It'll probably bring me some more grief, but what's new about that? ;)

    ReplyDelete
  25. Steve...I'll say this about many of the readers here, though...

    Even though they may have had many friends while IN the movement, they lose most of them when they leave it. Shunning. Fortunately, a lot of them have found some solid friendships outside.

    ReplyDelete
  26. The ironic thing about a courtship is that IMO you're MORE likely to get your heart broken...after all, even with a "no-emotional-commitment" policy, it happens, and anyone who enters a courtship has the goal of marriage. Not everyone who dates enters the relationship thinking they are going to marry the other person. So courtship actually creates MORE heartbreak.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "The ironic thing about a courtship is that IMO you're MORE likely to get your heart broken...after all, even with a "no-emotional-commitment" policy, it happens, and anyone who enters a courtship has the goal of marriage. Not everyone who dates enters the relationship thinking they are going to marry the other person. So courtship actually creates MORE heartbreak."

    Oh my gosh Anne this is so true! You completely expect it will work out - courtship, the perfect formula, right? - and then if it doesn't your heart is completely ruined and all your plans failed. People generally don't go into dating with this perspective, and so if it doesn't work out, yes it's tough, but not at all on the same scale. I hadn't thought of it in that way before, but you're so right!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anne and Libby...Exactly.

    A hat tip to Sarah for posting this link over on the Water Cooler...

    http://gilbatesfamily.com/2011/07/01/zach-sarah/

    This is like a religious ceremony and it's just the beginning of a freakin' courtship. How weird is this nonsense? Does anyone want to tell me there's no pressure on these two? If you were one of them, would you be more than a little afraid of this ending in anything other than marriage?

    I've never understood why courtship-happy fundamentalists throw out personal responsibility, discipline, and self-control, and assume, like arrogant jerks, that people who "date" only end up having pre-marital sex and lack the common sense to marry someone who isn't their "best friend".

    It's maddening.

    And I could say SOOOOOOO much more about this kind of religious sickness...but today's been long enough.

    ReplyDelete
  29. That courtship-starting celebration is ridiculous. All those photos? A public display on her parents' website? Those kids don't stand a chance of working out whether or not they actually want to be together.

    Courtship here has done exactly what it was intended to prevent: the basing of an entire lifelong commitment on physical attraction. Because when you've been taught that you cannot pursue any kind of relationship with a member of the opposite sex (other than "friendship" in the context of large, supervised groups of people and their siblings where communication on deep, heartfelt issues is stifled and everything is superficial) ALL YOU HAVE LEFT is physical attraction.

    The comments on their page are even more disturbing, talking about how the parents only have so many more kids left to pair off. It might as well be an engagement announcement.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Christy- I could have written your whole comment. I'm still trying to pick up the pieces and learn how to feel and how to express love.

    ReplyDelete
  31. '''Does anyone else struggle with this? '''

    Holding up hand and waving Christy!

    I remember pushing myself so hard to get past that. It was like pulling teeth at times.

    I didn't even realized I struggled in that area until I was in counseling, and it was pointed out to me that speak about tragic things like it was the weather channel.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Lewis,

    No, by friend I mean, you know, a friend. Somebody you get together with, spend time with, share your thoughts and emotions with, somebody who is moral support - for the long term. Somebody who may not go to your church or school or involved in your family. Somebody you may have known for years. You hang out with them til 2am at Denny's, you help them cut down their tree and they help you go to the city dump. Maybe you go to the Ted Nugent concert together LOL. If you're lookin' for a job, they talk to people they know, and vice versa. Just a normal friend. And you talk to them about this weird stuff your church and family are trying to pull.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Steve,

      I remember reading in one of Lewis' blog posts about how friends were basically approved of as well, at least for stricter families. The girls all had to be from the same cultic background, or similar, of course. Lewis mentions that his ex would cut anyone out of her life who said anything seemingly negative about her family. So, friends? Not the greatest thing either (according to Patriarchs). They are seen as a route to rebellion, experimentation, frivolity... blah blah blah.

      Delete
  33. @Steve...Most of the ladies who've come out of all of this have been fortunate to establish some of those kind of friendships. They've probably been life and sanity savers for many of them.

    While still in the movements themselves, though, most were likely too afraid to say much to anybody, and most of the friendships there proved to be based only on compliance to the paradigm.

    Ladies...Please do chime in about this if you feel compelled. It's an interesting topic.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I was not raised QF/P, but spent decades in a church where people thought it was an ideal. I absorbed it all and ended up married to a mentally ill, abusive man. Yes, I had friends, but they were either in authority over me, or we were careful not to be too vulnerable. It was not until I left and then divorced that I really learned what it was like to completely fall apart in front of someone, call out for help, and be embraced without any hesitation. It is no exaggeration to say that it turned my whole life upside down.

    ReplyDelete
  35. /pops in without-reading-every-comment

    "Anytime a single person, particularly one on the rebound from a break-up, starts talking about being "complete in Christ", that's code for "I'm lonely, I'm desperate, and I'll soon jump into another relationship waaaay before I'm ready." It never fails."

    And that relationship is usually also pushed by parents who are now like "OH SHIT" and make you feel like you're now tarnished or something (horrible if you've read anything about emotional purity in your teens and internalize that to mean if you love anyone for realz, you're theirs or you're a jar of water with a drop of milk in it. Dirty and disgusting and to be handed to whoever will take you) and try to force you into the next guy they see who they may or may not know anything about, just that he seems to fit their ideal and it doesn't matter if you're not attracted to him remotely.

    But then, I guess you actually already said that.

    Also this "Most of the ladies who've come out of all of this have been fortunate to establish some of those kind of friendships. They've probably been life and sanity savers for many of them."

    Is so true. This is the *only* reason I made it, and the only reason I was able to muster the courage/desperation to stay (alive) and run off with my love. He and the others were instrumental in my escape before I even realized I needed to leave. They opened up doors in my mind that allowed me to think without judgement, and I'll never be able to thank them all enough for that.

    /pops back out

    ReplyDelete
  36. And that relationship is usually also pushed by parents who are now like "OH SHIT" and make you feel like you're now tarnished or something (horrible if you've read anything about emotional purity in your teens and internalize that to mean if you love anyone for realz, you're theirs or you're a jar of water with a drop of milk in it. Dirty and disgusting and to be handed to whoever will take you) and try to force you into the next guy they see who they may or may not know anything about, just that he seems to fit their ideal and it doesn't matter if you're not attracted to him remotely.


    imperfectable...That's all true. Sometimes, as with my ex's family (particularly with the oldest sister - being that's the situation I witnessed first hand), it's love-bombing and a shallow pampering of the emotional vulnerabilities of the girl, and exploiting those vulnerabilities. It's easy to do when you've raised someone to be emotionally deficient and unable to discern so much as the direction of the wind. My ex's parents did this...and they were and are piss-poor parents. While they may have loved her in their own perverted, mess-up way, they really didn't care at ALL about her genuine emotional health, but only about the health of what THEY wanted for her. Terrible parenting. Heck...terrible peopling.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Let me see if I understand this. She was put into a courtship with Kelly then it didn't end in marriage, but already she's married to a guy she just met and is pregnant--and depressed? Dang, with that little control over life I'd sure believe she'd be depressed.

    All the b.s. of courtship, of all girls being "Princesses" and all the rest of it is as much a mind trip as "free love." You invest yourself at some level in every relationship--romantic or not. Did any of these parents "court?" Generally the answer is OF COURSE NOT!! They grew up in public school, watching tv, playing sports, knowing people outside their immediate family but somehow decided all that was "evil." Poor, poor girl.......

    ReplyDelete
  38. While you have a point, you might want to consider taking this post down and posting it at a later date. Katy and Jason lost their child. As I know from FJ that Katy reads blogs and forums, she might see this post. Again, I'm not saying, "You're wrong. Take it down.", I'm just saying that this timing might make a period of very overwhelming sorrow for a (very young!)woman going through a such a loss even more difficult.

    ReplyDelete
  39. "and some things had come to light
    in the young mans life
    and my Dad (who is my hero) made the decision
    to break off our courtship.
    I was devastated.
    All my life all I had wanted was to
    be a wife and Mother."

    But....wait for it...she had made marriage...yep!...AN IDOL!!!

    I want to barf every time I read of some "maiden" going on and on about Daddy is a "hero." We have totally lost the sense and meaning of that word and no where in the world is it more misused than in the Patriarchy.

    Be honest child. Daddy didn't like the guy and pulled the plug. Maybe he didn't like seeing you paying so much attention to another guy?? Maybe that guy would stand up to your hero? Maybe that guy expected to BE your hero. I get sicker and sicker the more I read of this young lady's blog.

    And, for the record, she has now lost the baby. Did she announce she was pregnant before the stick was dry? Poor thing--all happiness comes only from a man and a baby. No matter which man. Love the one you marry.....sick, sick, sick.

    ReplyDelete
  40. As of now, I don't feel compelled to take this piece down.

    What I'll do is not write about her response to the miscarriage, even though I believe her means of grieving further illustrates her problems.

    To any and all of my readers who believe in prayer, pray for her.

    ReplyDelete
  41. This pattern seems to repeat itself a lot- do you think that maybe it's a part of the courtship control-freak parent's manual?

    Dangling marital bliss in front of the daughter and then ripping it away might serve to show the daughter that even after she's married and the mistress of her own household she still has to answer to Daddy.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anon 9:18...It's hard to say. It's all so arbitrary from case to case, and some parental objections are just asinine.

    I'll say this - I don't believe, for ONE second, her account of why the courtship ended. It's kinda like a White House press release (regardless of who the President is)...about 3% accurate and 97%BS. That's what I see with this girl, too.

    Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting the first guy was any kind of prize. He was probably a legalistic patriarse all his own. But, from my reading of all this, he WAS the one she loved, the one who naturally made her heart go pitter-patter.

    ReplyDelete
  43. @ Anon 9:18, I had a friend who went through the "proper" courtship process, approved by both sets of parents, always chaperoned, no physical contact, etc. They got engaged, but then her father felt she was starting to shift her allegiance to her future-husband "too soon".

    So he called off the wedding. Something like a month before hand. After she did whatever it was that her father felt she needed to do, he "reinstated" the wedding and then later told her that he always knew he was going to "let" them get married, he just needed to know she would obey him (her dad) with unquestioned obedience.

    Sick.

    (and then of course my parents used that experience as an example for me and my guy. They thought it was just the height of godliness that her father did that and that she obeyed. If I were in her shoes, I probably would have done like she did and said whatever my dad wanted to hear so that I could get married and GET OUT OF THERE. Either that or just eloped.)

    --J

    ReplyDelete
  44. "Did any of these parents "court?" Generally the answer is OF COURSE NOT!! They grew up in public school, watching tv, playing sports, knowing people outside their immediate family but somehow decided all that was "evil."

    Hopewell: There's a reason you don't see patriarchal/fundi parents posting their courtship/engagement stories. Because this entire thing is a response to their own sexual sin/regret/feelings of impurity. Most of these folks did grow up after free love. Many are sorry, sorry they married the people they did and believe that, had they stayed pure, their lives would be different. Much much different.

    So in response, they hang a legalistic boat anchor around the necks of their children they were never able to wag around their own selves.

    Its the dirty little secret of this whole thing that would set so many of their children free if they only knew.

    (Lewis, please feel free to delete if you think this is out of line. You've certainly had enough trouble lately without stirring the pot further...)

    ReplyDelete
  45. I agree 100% Connie. All of the Patriarchal families I know personally did NOT grow up the way they are raising their kids. Most of them were hells angels as teens and young adults... running with bad crowds, partying, sleeping around (or just having sex before marriage)... Most of the attraction to this mindset seems to mostly be an attempt to change the past by making the future "perfect".

    They think that by controlling their kids lives, they can assure that their children will not make the same mistakes they did. That they will grow up to be "super Christians", who always make the right choice and always do the right thing.

    And yet... I am seeing more and more that one extreme only leads to the other. Extreme control only leads to either utterly broken people, or extreme rebellion. Many of these young adults will go out and do everything their parents were trying to STOP them from doing, simply because they never had a CHOICE in the beginning. They never "chose" God, they were forced to, or else.

    Not that I think it is bad to raise your children as Christians, I myself will be doing that. But I can say with certainty, that my parents did it the way I want to. Around age 16 they had sort of a "talk" with us, saying that from then on, we would start to make our own decisions, and the consequences of those would be ours alone. They are always available for advice, but never for "rules". They let me know what they think of my decisions (good or bad), but never use that as a way to manipulate me into doing what they want. It's more like "I don't agree with your decision, but I will always love you and always support you. You are always welcome into our home, with open arms!"

    That is the sort of parent I hope to be. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  46. Connie is right on. Most of the parents who force/raise their kids to court, did not themselves court.

    I think some of what we might be seeing is a knee jerk reaction to "mistakes" that some parents felt they made or "mistakes" they are scared their kids will do. That "feeling" is typically called "fear". Not fear like "I'M TRAPPED BETWEEN A MAMA BEAR AND HER CUB AND MAMA BEAR IS CHARGING!" Fear like "I'm worried about baby Suzie's chance of getting into college because she's been getting a little too rebellious in her feeding schedule."

    Some of those parents may have even had their kids out of wedlock and according to their morality it may have been due to lack of self control. In other words, fear instead of blessing is what really drives their reasoning on how to raise their kids on the topic of seeking a mate.

    Education also plays a roll in this. Neither of my parents went to college or university. My mom always blamed getting married at a young age on why she never went to college and therefore never had opportunities. I'm sure y'all can spot a bunch of BS in that statement. I should also state that health problems I was born with cost a LOT of money for the first 12 years of my life and my parents also bought brand new homeschooling curriculum every year (full price, they hated getting hand-me-downs and feared what I would feel if I had hand-me-downs). Guess what? It was imperative to both my parents that I get a bachelor's degree before getting married. While in word my mom has stated that she resents getting married early, the reality is that she's probably protecting herself and others from resenting my dad, myself, my former health problems, and the cult church my parents had been in.

    I don't regret or resent having been put through university. I regret how I approached university and how it was setup. University can be a good thing, but the extra reasons to go are like foxes nipping at the heels.

    I don't regret marrying. I regret how I was raised and set up in regards to marriage. I would rather have had my best friend with me for the past 10 years instead of waiting 10 years.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Had I allowed parents to break me up with DH (semperfid) I would have had to tell myself a lot of the same things, the girl in your post is saying to comfort myself - even though it was not a parentally approved courtship. What else can you tell yourself when you are so eager to please God in everything you do?

    If you are under that paradigm that everything that happens is God's will - you basically have no choice but to find the silver lining to any and all pain, otherwise you'll get mad at God and then suddenly realize it wasn't His fault and eventually that He had less to do with it than YOU did.

    I am so sorry to hear she is having a miscarriage. That's also very painful. I hope she is not layered with guilt or condemnation over the loss of her child - THAT is just a nasty ball of wax from the religious community.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Hi there :) We feel honored to be stars in this very interesting bit of discussion lol. This is Jason Katy's (the girl this blog post was about) husband. I'm an easy goin, fun loving guy so I will have a lil fun with this while hopefully bringing up some neat thoughts for everyone.

    I personally feel a bit like a outsider because I have never been in a courtship, I only dated. I know you thought Katy and I must have courted however that was only with Kelly her first.

    Lets try to get the facts right with that also. She found kelly and started talking to him and wanted to court it was what she wanted, not forced by her dad or mom. (I agree with you it is insane to have parents more or less pick who they think would be "good" for their son or daughter)
    THE FAILED courtship............ lol
    what it failed??? Well yes if it was suppose to protect her from ALL emotional hardship. However it did succeed in two ways:
    1. It did protect her from a life of extreme and continual emotional pain and self esteem issues. Her ex was addicted to a self destructive life style.
    2. It did save her from giving herself physically to someone other than me which I HAVE TO SAY I APPRECIATE.


    I know she gave her self to him emotionally I dont deny it. She cried for days. But so what, I gave myself emotionally to others also. Like you said emotions kinda flow easy and dont get held back too well. But thats why emotions can also change so fast. And its good to protect by watching where they lead so that you don't end up in a worse spot than you thought possible. That is one good thing about God creating the family unit, the family does help watch all angles and sometimes says you better watch out we see this possible problem with that guy/girl.
    Example: my sister was dating a guy who seemed alright but I saw that he lied alot. She was love struck and hadn't seen it right off.

    You loved your ex s all of you did or thought you did anyway thats why it hurt so bad to lose them.
    Everyone on here has been hurt and I'm sorry if it was because of overbarring parents who ripped your love away or it may been that you weren't who you should have been idk but its time to let it go. Forgive those who wronged you and move on. but being rude to someone you don't know making guesses because you had a simular past is not helping you or them. No hard feelings I understand you have been hurt by courting and so anyone who says its a good thing rubs you the wrong way.

    PS: This is from Katy-

    I really appreciate this and wanted to thank you for posting this comment.

    @ nolongerIFBx said...
    While you have a point, you might want to consider taking this post down and posting it at a later date. Katy and Jason lost their child. As I know from FJ that Katy reads blogs and forums, she might see this post. Again, I'm not saying, "You're wrong. Take it down.", I'm just saying that this timing might make a period of very overwhelming sorrow for a (very young!)woman going through a such a loss even more difficult.

    ReplyDelete
  49. It did protect her from a life of extreme and continual emotional pain and self esteem issues. Her ex was addicted to a self destructive life style.

    Considering her own words in describing it as "The past few months of my life have been some of the happiest I have ever known", I'd be interested in hearing some elaboration on this. Elaboration. Not spiritualized rationalization. I'd be curious to know what "I choose Jesus" meant, because I'm fairly certain Jesus didn't say "Hey...It's either me or that guy. You can't have us both." If "I choose Jesus" meant doing what the family wanted, "Jesus" wasn't actually chosen at all, and it isn't healthy.

    That is one good thing about God creating the family unit, the family does help watch all angles and sometimes says you better watch out we see this possible problem with that guy/girl.

    Most emotionally healthy families consider this meddling as practiced by neo-conservative/courtship people. The responsible thing for parents to do is to raise their children to be able to make their OWN independent and responsible decisions as adults. Not to raise their children with strange, religious culturally-driven ideas that are external solutions to internal issues. These things are generally symptomatic of religious addiction.

    No hard feelings I understand you have been hurt by courting and so anyone who says its a good thing rubs you the wrong way.

    I don't loathe courtship because of my experience. I loathed the very idea of courtship prior to my experience. It's ridiculously immature, and it's an external solution to internal issues.

    ReplyDelete
  50. A core problem with the courtship model is the question of whether or not a person is capable and adult enough to make decisions on their own.

    Courtship removes responsibility and judgment from the people who should have already learned that responsibility and judgment and should be exercising it for themselves.

    The Bible states that through the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, we have direct access to the throne room of God. On that terrible and wonderful day, the VEIL WAS TORN. Our High Priest is Christ and our comforter is the Holy Spirit. Our personal relationship has no one in between us. Not parents, not spouses, not siblings, not godparents, not pastors, not elders, not deacons.

    Either we can hear for ourselves WITHOUT outside influence, or we cannot.

    Courtship defies the personhood of those subject to it and also questions whether or not that person is capable of living life.

    Without answers to these core issues, courtship is in defiance of life as Jesus taught.

    It is not the adult child's fault if their parents did not accomplish everything the PARENTS wanted to. When it comes to marriage, the pursuit thereof, and life after marriage, parents have either raised their offspring to be adults or not. Regardless, the parents must release an adult to be an adult because the parents no longer have the responsibility NOR the requirement of caring for the adult. It is up to the adult to pursue marriage and engage life and take responsibility for what happens or does not.

    If one believes truly believes in the Bible as many pro-courtship people do, then the adult is "fully equipped for every good work" and fully capable of shaping their life and is 100% responsible for THEIR CHOICES. Anything less is denial.

    Most people going through recovery have realized what they are responsible for and accept it. What is sad, is that we still bear the consequences of bad parenting and our failure to throw off inappropriate control.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Everyone on here has been hurt and I'm sorry if it was because of overbarring parents who ripped your love away or it may been that you weren't who you should have been idk but its time to let it go. Forgive those who wronged you and move on.

    And Jason, you should probably read this (which I posted several days ago)...

    http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.com/2011/08/you-need-to-just-let-it-go-and-move-on.html

    It's hard to counter a stigma of legalism when you use the language of a spiritual abuser.

    ReplyDelete
  52. back to you lewis Strait from the King of Kings. "the way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise." proverbs 12:15 if a young adult thinks/believes they know it all and don't need any pointers from friends or family it's very probible they will end up screwing up.

    once again i didn't court nor do i even think it will be what i would want my kids to do. and i do get your point about trying to deal with an internal problem by forcing from the outside. it leaves hurt and imbittered people. i hope to have my children raised in such a way that they will make Godly choses on their own or when they aren't sure they seek wise counsel from the bible.
    this needs no farther response. here is something for you though you know Jesus isn't to blame for what people or you did to your life so it's best to go to him sooner rather than later.

    ReplyDelete
  53. I'm confused Jason. Isn't that what Lewis is saying? Counsel, given while growing up is heeded when the birds fly the nest?

    Unfortunately, in your world view, the counsel must be sought at every step of life - though I'm sure you will disagree due to my putting words in your mouth.

    This is one area where I diverge from you. If my squirts need my counsel to guide their steps at marrying age, I am convinced I have failed. If they seek it, to make sure they get something right, then, I'm there for them.

    But, here is the crux. Just because they seek my counsel does not mean that I will get it right. I, and any adult that is religiously set up as infallible, CAN and WILL get something wrong. Coming to me is no guarantee that I will save my children from harm.

    To think otherwise is to elevate the counselor to a status that is unhealthy and ripe for abuse. Old movies used to show it well - meddling and gossiping in affairs not your own in order to attempt to wield control over another life.

    I'm fairly certain the writer of that Proverb was simply saying that one person is foolish to believe that they will get everything right. And that goes for the one who deems themselves worthy of giving unfettered counsel that holds the weight of bounded choice.

    Also, it goes without saying that that Proverb does not exclude ALL people for counsel. And it is NOT referring to a young adult exclusively. It refers to ALL whom it addresses - ALL of the readers who ever read it.

    That pretty much kills the "family/young adult" square paradigm you try to stuff into a theological round hole.

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  54. back to you lewis Strait from the King of Kings. "the way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise." proverbs 12:15 if a young adult thinks/believes they know it all and don't need any pointers from friends or family it's very probible they will end up screwing up.

    Wow. That's a pretty extreme stretch of the issue..."a young adult thinks/believes they know it all"...I'm curious where I've suggested as much. Counsel is a wonderful thing - except when that counsel supercedes a person's own common sense, emotional/spiritual health and well-being, and personal interaction with the Holy Spirit. Or, as is usually the case in courtship, when counsel is actually control, and the parent acts as a mediator between God and an adult. Not good. It's also a mistake to think that ALL counsel is good counsel. It isn't. It's the responsibility of the individual to discern the difference.

    once again i didn't court nor do i even think it will be what i would want my kids to do.

    A wise choice. Courtship is ridiculous.

    i do get your point about trying to deal with an internal problem by forcing from the outside. it leaves hurt and imbittered people.

    I'm not sure you do actually get it.

    i hope to have my children raised in such a way that they will make Godly choses on their own or when they aren't sure they seek wise counsel from the bible.

    How about "wise" or "good" choices rather than "godly" ones?...cause that gets into (or opens the door for) all kinds of religious addictions. And remember, although the bible is a good source, good counsel can be found in places other than the bible. Be careful that you don't teach your future children to worship the Holy Quartet - Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Canonized Bible.

    here is something for you though you know Jesus isn't to blame for what people or you did to your life so it's best to go to him sooner rather than later.

    Not once have I ever blamed Jesus. You should read the "New Reader's Guide" - there's a link at the top of the page.

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  55. *slips in quietly and quickly*

    Hurt does not always mean embittered.

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  56. An astute point, Anne. I'm happy to say, you learn well on my knee. *Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

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  57. Her ex was addicted to a self destructive life style.

    This is what confounds me (and no, I don't want any salacious details), because from my perspective, so is she, and based on what's been written here, so are you.

    That was the point of the whole piece.

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  58. i find your article down right hilarious and ridiculous. How can you assume things without knowing the facts?

    There may be different things involved in her life that she does not owe anyone- and the fact that you feel you need to tear her to pieces is a shame.

    Spare us your rant until you have all the facts. 75% of your post is assumptions.

    I am so tired of people picking on everyone else just because someone else hurt them. leave the kid alone. You got hurt, and i am sorry for you. but leave her be. Courtship is not for everyone- no. but for some people it works.

    ~Becky

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  59. i find your article down right hilarious and ridiculous. How can you assume things without knowing the facts?

    The same way you just assumed that my article was offbase and therefore ridiculous/hilarious...except...unlike you, I actually looked at and weighed the evidence and didn't write this article exclusively out of emotion. It also helps in spotting religious addictions and spiritual abuse when you actually bother to educate yourself on those things.

    There may be different things involved in her life that she does not owe anyone- and the fact that you feel you need to tear her to pieces is a shame.

    I don't feel any need to "tear her to pieces". She's promoting religious addiction and some spiritually abusive ideas. I addressed those and the things/effects/fallout connected to them, and did so pointedly. Her, I pity.

    Spare us your rant until you have all the facts. 75% of your post is assumptions.


    And 100% of your comment is total emotional BS. I'm not forcing you to read here.

    I am so tired of people picking on everyone else just because someone else hurt them.

    Yeah, that's exactly what's going on here. Spare me your rant until you have all the facts ;)

    leave the kid alone. You got hurt, and i am sorry for you. but leave her be.

    She needs help. I'm sorry that you, and apparently all of the religious addicts in her life, can't see that.

    Courtship is not for everyone- no. but for some people it works.

    Courtship is ridiculously stupid for adults, in many cases abusive, in many cases destructive. It doesn't really "work" in any instance. A few relationships just happen to survive it, or it just happens to work like an arranged, loveless, passionless marriage for imbiblers and religious addicts who make an idol of marriage and having babies. It's an external solution to what should be an internal matter, and it's blatant legalism. It's ridiculous.

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  60. In this girl's post, she admitted that the ended courtship hurt. So the courtship did NOT prevent emotional attachment. She also said that ultimately, the end of the courtship didn't crush her, because Jesus is her ultimate strength.

    soooooooo............HOW is that different from a healthy dating relationship?

    People who promote courtship often act as though teens who "date" and make their own relationship decisions are incapable of putting Jesus first. Nothing could be further from the truth!

    In fact, I have seen courtship itself be the DIRECT cause of women getting too emotionally invested. Because courtship is presented as a "serious" endeavor, which you're only supposed to do with someone you "seriously think you might marry"....young people assume that anyone they have feelings for must be a "serious" possibility for marriage. (Because to admit that they have a crush, or that they kinda like someone they don't know well, would be selfish and sinful. So they have to mentally window-dress it to be "serious" and "God's will" in order to be able to enjoy the attraction to the other person). Therefore, the first person their parents give them permission to court becomes a relationship they MUST take very seriously, and a relationship that will PROBABLY end in marriage. At least, in their mind.

    How do I know? Because I've seen people do it!

    If someone wants to use courtship, that is their prerogative. My beef, though, is this: let's stop pretending that it is better than dating. Let's stop pretending that it prevents things which it actually doesn't prevent.

    If, after all that, you still want to use it, then okay. But don't use it because you think it can force your relationships to be healthy. Only Christ can do that.

    Red

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  61. Just figured I'd let you know the girl whose article you linked to is now happily married. She is not drinking the righteous fundie KoolAid a lot of people are. She wears jeans and a regular bathing suit, like a tankini with boyshort bottoms. She has a son now, just recently, but it's not like she's being repressed, dressed in a tent, and paraded as the pinnacle of motherhood. She is a faithful Christian, and God obviously had better plans for her than the guy from the first "courtship." It was only 3 months, anyway, so obviously she bounced back within a few weeks. My high school dating relationship (before my husband) was literally 2 years long!!! When it was over, I was truly devestated and took at least 2 months to even come close to healing (which is a long time for a 16 year old). This girl obviously has a strong faith, and her husband was worth waiting for. I'm glad they're happy, and they are walking with Christ.

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    1. "She is a faithful Christian, and God obviously had better plans for her than the guy from the first "courtship.""

      God had nothing to do with her (or her parents') choices. He doesn't deserve the credit or blame, and to give God one or the other spiritualizes something that isn't spiritual - which is a symptom of religious addiction.

      I hope she's happy, healthy, and lives a fulfilled life.

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