Over on thatmom, my friend Karen has posted this link from a practitioner of patriarchy and a proponent of the courtship formula for finding a mate (or, more accurately, your father finding your mate for you). Tip 'O the hat to Karen for passing along the link.
And, on From Denim Jumpers to Blue Jeans, my friend Heather has posted this link by a young lady from a couple that practices "Domestic Discipline." Eye-opening.
Commandments of men.
This is why I write, folks.
Editorial and commentary on Christian culture, religious and political fundamentalism, and more.
As for the first link: Word. How did they ever, ever find anyone that not only was "suitable" for their daughters, but actually wanted to go through an inquisition such as that in the first place?? What's with all the doctrinal questions? Crazy.
ReplyDeleteThe first list has no extra credit? The other one sounds pretty much kinky. Check out their blogroll. Do they make any claim to being Christian?
ReplyDeleteI don't even have words for the second link. I had no idea that something like this existed. I wish I still didn't know.....:(
ReplyDeleteThe word "kinky" is no where on our blog, Steve Scott :) And yes, I'm Christian.
ReplyDeleteBrinlee
McDonald link - it's so obvious what the right answers are. I'm considering printing this out for my husband and I to fill out some for fun. Our last 5 (evil) movies, oh no!
ReplyDeleteDomestic Discipline link - ah, funny! I actually ran into the "Christian Domestic Discipline community" when I was a new mother googling for Christian opinions on spanking children. It's bizarre how they like to maintain the facade about how it's all real, true, Godly, Biblical discipline rather than a sexual fetish. Taking them at their word that it is completely consensual*, it is TOTALLY a sexual fetish and indistinguishable from secular "24/7 dominance/submission" lifestyles, except that they put a Christian gloss on it to justify (hmm, I bet the Christian gloss is part of the scene that makes it sexier). Personally, I don't care - if you want a frisson of dominance to jazz up your sex life, then knock your kinky selves out. Acting as if it's totally righteously Biblical...pu-lease.
(*Knowing fundamentalists like I do, I wouldn't be surprised by a controlling, abusive husband imposing his kink on an unwilling wife who feels she has no choice but to submit. See Mary Winkler.)
Brinlee...I really, really would like for you to consider what you're being subjected to.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, if a member of the law enforcement community, or the district attorney's office, were to witness your husband putting soap in your mouth to "punish" you, would he or you go about it confidently or proudly?
I don't know of a single instance in the scripture where what you're submitting to is mandated or even remotely suggested. It troubles me that you'd be subjected to it, or subject yourself to it, and attach it in any way to your faith in Christ.
Brinlee wrote: "The word "kinky" is no where on our blog"
ReplyDeleteDoes it have to be?
Lewis, I'd be more than happy to listen to your points of views, beliefs, opinions, etc. if you would talk to me in a way that I didn't feel was rude, condescending, and hurtful. If you can do that, I would love to hear you out and maybe reconsider all of this. You're more than welcome to email me.
ReplyDeleteBrinlee
And Scott, no I was just helping you to understand that your assumptions are not factually based, nor correct. Unless you've been in the kind of marriage that I'm in.. I don't know why you, or anyone else, would feel they understand it enough to make the statements they have.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is entitled to their own opinions. But, like I've said a million times, if you and everyone else honestly believe your statements to be well thought out, mature, respectful, non-hurtful and not judgemental, then by all means, go post them on my blog :) I respect everyones opinions. And I try to respond to ya'll in a manner that is respectful and non-hurtful. I just ask that you do the same.
Brinlee
(this is directed to everyone, not just Steve Scott).
Wow! Thanks for sharing although I'm quite shocked. The list for courting is like putting a person on trial or prepping for taking some big exam like the SAT or ACT.
ReplyDeleteAnd the other website/blog, I was incredulous. Spanking your spouse? Really? I feel bad for couples in the trap of trying to make marriage work through discipline. God didn't create it to be a "Domestic Discpline" where the wife has to endure groundings, spankings and discipline like a child. The husband and wife both lose a beautiful blessing. The husband looses a helpmeet by being 'discplinary' and the wife required to adhere to punishments. Instead of a mutually edifing, fullfilling, interdependant relationship of marriage. So very sad.
Brinlee...I haven't intended to be rude toward you, so I apologize if it's come across that way. I've been a bit more stern toward those who seem to be encouraging you in this lifestyle among the comments on your blog.
ReplyDeleteI hope you'll understand that my concern is for your well-being - spiritually, emotionally, physically - because I believe this lifestyle puts it very much in doubt, and I have to be honest with you upfront, I'll never be able to respect a difference of opinion concerning this, even though willing to hear it. That's not meant to be condescending, judgmental, what have you.
Please feel free to read the material on my blog to give you an idea of where I'm at on submission-based, authoritarian beliefs and practices, and to give you an idea of why I'm as passionate as I am concerning these issues.
Again, my concern is for your well-being, and that of any other woman in this lifestyle. If you want to discuss it further, you can reach me through the contact form at the top of the page...I'll gladly communicate with you.
Brinlee, I'm sorry if you feel judged. There are many who've been in bondage to harsh discipline from religious organizations, doctrines, or churches. So they're passionate for the Bride of Christ and it may come off as strong/confrontational to you. There's a freedom in Christ, in marriage and this is so not what I imagined Christ wanted for His bride.
ReplyDeleteAmazing. Certainly not the smallest hint of legalism to be seen there! But I'm sure the right self-righteous know-it-all will come along eventually. I busted out laughing at:
ReplyDelete"If “your” daughter were marrying “you”, what cautions would you have?"
(Answer: "Well, first I'd caution her that it was definitely illegal in most countries...")
Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch in which the king is trying to find someone to marry the princess: "At nine o'clock tomorrow morning, armed only with your sword, you must go to the highest tower in the castle, and jump out of the window. [Splat.]... No, dear, he wasn't worthy of you."
I daren't click the other link since I'm on a work computer. However, 1 John 4:18.
Word verification: Worsed. Yep, about right.
""If “your” daughter were marrying “you”, what cautions would you have?"
ReplyDelete(Answer: "Well, first I'd caution her that it was definitely illegal in most countries...")"
lol Eric...Bet dear old dad's never thought of that potential answer.
Hey everyone! I saw the post about the "courtship" questions last night. Whew! That's a lot of info. to get from a person. But...isn't that what most people do when they "date"? ALL of those questions come up even during the dating process. The courtship process seems...rushed to me. I've noticed on certain blogs, a couple will announce a courtship in spring...and be engaged by the end of the summer.
ReplyDeleteOn the Maxwell Family blog, the oldest son, Chris announced a courtship and within 2 weeks they were engaged. Huh? Can someone explain why people were congratulating them...for courting? I thought you gave congrats for an engagement. Suppose a courtship doesn't work out? It just seems backwards to me.
Sorry for the rambling Lewis. Just trying to figure all this out. :)
Angie...With courtship proponents, once people begin the courtship process, it's usually presupposed that they will get married. My ex's family put more value on the beginning of a "courtship" than on the significance of the promise made at engagement. The engagement promise gets devalued and taken for granted. Promise, in general, gets taken for granted, as everything gets offered on the altar of these crazy formulas.
ReplyDeleteThey blur the lines a million different ways, because if the father allows the couple to define their relationship as God directs them (God forbid!!!), he loses control, or if normal standards are used to define the relationship, he loses control. It's ALL about control.
Brinlee, just wanted to clarify when I said: "this is so not what I imagined Christ wanted for His bride." I was referring to living a "domestic discipline" marriage. Christ did not treat His Bride (the church/us) in this way. No. He laid down His love, bleed, and endured for us, to have us. What bride or wife wouldn't respect or love to submit to such a husband?? Christ is our perfect husbandly example.
ReplyDelete@ CDG You are spot on.
ReplyDeleteSome people like being punished and dominated. The secular world calls it B/S/M and they are unashamed as well. The religious spin on it adds a new element, but that's really all it is. I have no doubt that women who enjoy such things really do feel "cleansed" "free" etc. after they have been punished.
What's wrong is that they are proposing it as being pleasing to God, when I very much doubt he cares, the marriage bed being honorable and all that.
However I share Lewis' concern that unwilling wives could be menatally/physically tormented by such domination, and that is a very dangerous situation. Then it crosses the line from consensual fetish to domestic violence.
I am positive beyond a shadow of a doubt that dominance of a wife by a husband is 100% contrary to the will of God, as the Apostle Paul writes that a husband is to love, cherish, nurture and lay down his life for his wife. Nowhere does he admonish husband's ever to punish their wives.
Finally,nowhere do we see an example of Jesus physically correcting any disciple! He verbally rebukes on occasion, and he was none to kind to the moneychangers (who were NOT his disciples!)but nowhere did he use violence or ostracisation of any kind as a teaching tool.
Lewis,
ReplyDeleteYou and Heather seem to have a knack for finding people with...interesting beliefs and bringing them to your blog. :P
And, for the record, I DID know about S & M. I had no idea people practiced it in the name of God and christianity.
"I had no idea people practiced it in the name of God and christianity."
ReplyDeleteThat's what makes it worrisome in the broader sense, aside from whatever may actually be going on in the individual cases.
Is there anyone who is respectful, non judgemental, and nice who is willing to talk to me about this further?
ReplyDeleteBrinlee
PS- to ShadowSpring..if you're thinking that I "like this" that's absolutely insane.
Brinlee...I'd love to talk to you about it, but being as genuine in saying this as I know how, I don't want to do anything that puts you at risk for further punishment. Will emailing you do that?
ReplyDeleteBrinlee, we can respectively disagree. It doesn't mean we aren't willing to talk to you about it. What scripture does your DD doctrine come from? As Lewis asked, do you prefer email?
ReplyDeleteLewis, you can email me. That's fine.
ReplyDeleteTammy, eph 5 22-24.
I think Hilary's comment at Thatmom.com was brilliant.
ReplyDeleteI too had a list that I made up (although not *that* extensive)
When I met my husband he met everyone of those requirements except two. (He didn't make things with wood, or play the guitar, LOL! Although he is very handy with the computer, and it's his career and plays the trombone. I guess I got a more classical type of guy)
Anyhoo,
We BOTH changed as the years have progressed. Both of us are nothing on my list anymore. Except the two that Hilary stated on Thatmom.com
Brinlee, I love those verses. I also notice there's whole lotta of husband stuff past them.
ReplyDeleteYea, the obvious first is "wives, submit to your own husbands as to the LORD."...but then it's just getting good. Yes, we know husband is head like Christ is head of the church. And we could really go on how Christ died for His church in grace and mercy, especially when we didn't deserve it. He laid His life down when we were still wretched sinners, but I digress.
You can't have Ephesians 5:24 without the rest. They go together because it's a marriage Paul is talking about here. Between Christ and His bride the Church. Earthly marriage should be shadow of Christ marriage to His bride--us.
v.28 "So husbands ought ot love their own wives as their own bodies..." Really. v.29 "For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." Wow, that's beautiful. v.31 "For this reason a man shall leave his fathe rand mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." One flesh.
v.33 "Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and the let wife see that she respects her husband." In light of my husband loving me this way (which mine gladly does), then it's my pleasure to do v.22-24. And when the husband is doing his part in v.25-31, then marriage is the blessing God designed it to be. The wife then becomes a helpmeet to her husband and he no longer has to be a disciplinary taskmaster which will eventually strain a marriage. Over time.
God came to set us free from bondage. And in freedom it's where we gladly serve Him and our husband's. Out of pure love from the Father are we able to love in this way.
Brinlee, I just ask you look into scriptures and ask God to show YOU what He has to say about it. Don't take my word for it. Blessings and grace to you.
Heather...Hillary did make some beautiful points.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who haven't seen it, there's some good discussion on the courtship deal over at thatmom.com.
What amazes me...(sorry peeps roaring past that first blog and onto the second)...is that Brinlee hosts a blog about abuse and violence and then wonderingly asks why no one can discuss this "in a non-hurtful way"...Get a grip lady! We're scared for you!
ReplyDeleteYour blog promotes violence and dumb submission...or do you get to beat that pig of husband and I just missed that juicy bit? Expect a little feedback, dearie.
If I knew where your husband was I would call 9-1-1 on him.
Sorry to go off on such a rant on your blog, Lewis...this one just made me physically sick.
Brinlee,
ReplyDeleteI haven't said anything "disrespectful". I don't think anyone here has. I just completely and totally disagree with what you're saying. Doesn't mean I am "disrespectful".
And, honestly, if a couple likes that sort of thing and no one is getting shamed or hurt, it's just something "fun" that they do...that's their choice. What happens in their bedroom is up to them. But to say "this how God wants us to act" is completely false, unbiblical, against the heart of God and yes, I WILL speak out against it, passionately and freely. Calling a spade a spade is not being disrespectful.
I have a question: you say it is a mutual thing. Does that mean that if you ever didn't want to be punished, your husband would be fine with that? And does he get punished too? After all, Eph. 5:22 says "submit yourselves one to another".
There are thousands of couples who practice domestic discipline in this country. Thousands. I belong to many forums and chats with other couples like Brinlee and Parker.
ReplyDeleteSome things you dont know:
1. It is normally the woman who introduces dd into their marriage. She normally asks for it and wants it.
2. Many dd couples are made up of police officers, military, doctors, lawyers, PSYCHOLOGIST, priest, teachers etc. There is a wide span of career fields involved. Most DD couples are upper middle-class.
3. The relationship is completely consenting.
4. The discipline is not abuse. It is a SPANKING which by the way if you look at many of the older John Wayne movies they had dd scenes in them. DD has been around for generations. In the 50s it was commonplace for a husband to spank a wife if she was out of line. Spanking is not abuse. DD head of houses do not spank out of anger, but cool down first. They do not punch, slap or hurt their spouses in anyway accept on their bottoms. Yes, non corporal punishment is often applied as well. But remember- the wife WANTS this in her life.
5. There are many women who are truly being abused out there. They are being punched, kicked, bitten, stabbed etc. THESE are the woman who need help. They are not asking their husband "Please punch me in the stomach." We ask our husband "Please spank me, Sir."
6. It is none of your damn business. Brinlee and Parker have been open to their family and their friends about their relationship. If someone thought that Parker was abusing Brinlee they would have already called the police. There are plenty of people around on a daily basis who KNOW of the couples love for each other, and the way they choose to run their marriage who could have gotten them the so called "help" they needed if they thought she was being abused.
7. In a country as free as America where any religion can practice, any sexual orientation can live knowing the law protects them against hate crimes, all races and ethnicities dwell together in the same melting pot, the lifestyle preferences between two grown adults should be protected. Whether it be dd, master/slave, or any other type of BDSM. They arent hurting you, he isnt hurting her, so get over your self righteous judgmental high horses (and not everyone is a Christian who believes this by the way!!) and do something more productive with your lives- if you must interfere find a child or a woman who is really being abused and help them. Volunteer your abundant time on the internet with CASA.
Army Wife...You're welcome to take part here, but any more justifications of dysfunction and aberrant behaviors, with all of the coercive appeals of defense, like the one you just posted will be deleted. I give you my word on that.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I'm the "head" of this blog, and by your own reasoning, that makes me well-qualified to dole out the cyber-spankings around here.
Lewis,
ReplyDeleteThat saddens me. It means you arent open to understanding why we do what we do but only on judging it as wrong. I am sorry you feel that way. I suppose there is nothing I can say to have you change your opinion then.
Jess
I understand completely why you do what you do. I don't agree with it, I never will, and I can promise you that won't change. It has nothing to do with me being any kind of self-righteous "bible thumper." If you had bothered to read my blog, you'd see that I'm anything but a bible-thumping fundamentalist - with opposition to that being at the very core of why this page exists.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to practice this with your husband, as long as no one's getting hurt, more power to ya...Doesn't mean I have to like it, though, and it doesn't alter my concern for the physical, emotional, and spiritual conditions of the women subjected to the lifestyle.
Someone posted this on Brinlee's blog:
ReplyDelete"As for spanking being ONLY dangerous, and COMPLETELY harmful:
A few years ago, Russian scientists discovered this:
http://current.com/news/91683739_whipping-therapy-cures-addiction-depression-and-suicide-crises.htm .
Interesting. While I don't adhere to whipping on a daily basis, some women in this lifestyle WILL agree that spanking can bring about a cathartic release that makes them feel much better when they're feeling stressed."
This is what I take issue with. When I was depressed, and had low self-esteem, I would "punish" myself. I would pull my hair out, and yes spank myself with a wooden spoon.
I didn't do it very often, but often enough to do it to make me "feel" better about my "sin"
I know some people who cut themselves.
I doesn't matter that it makes you feel better about the situation.
What matters is the root issues that are causing you these feelings of being naughty enough to need a spanking.
I finally learned that Christ took all of my punishment for me on the cross, and when I rested my faith in that and that alone, I know longer felt the need to punish myself for mistakes and sins.
The fact that this is a Russian study doesn't convince me either, LOL!
What concerns me about this teaching if it is indeed something practice as a Christian submission issue, is that we need to be punished as Christians...especially when we have repented of our wrongs.
Spanked Army Wife,
I have researched some of this, from "Christian" websites, when a friend of mine forced her husband into it. He stopped after he felt humiliated as a man, and demising his wife. But I still didn't *get* it when I researched it.
I guess I don't get it, because my self-worth comes from knowing what Jesus did for me, and not in my husband spanking me.
If that is mean, judgmental, harsh, I am sorry you take it that way.
And what makes me even more perplexed about this issue, if it is Christian, why are so many blogs linked to Brinlee's site, and your site, Spanked Army Wife, pornographic?
ReplyDeleteI went to one called "Spanked Sophie" and there was nothing but pornography on it.
How are we supposed to be open minded to this, when it is connected to so many things on so many levels that are just plain wrong?
Thanks Heather and Lewis! :-)
ReplyDeleteAnd to the friends of Jess who may heed her call to come here and espouse your lifestyle...
ReplyDeleteThis string of comments will under no circumstances be provided as a platform for you to promote a vice or to promote the emotional instability and dysfunction that goes into it.
I repeat, I'm the "head" of this blog, and I won't hesitate to dole out cyber-spankings if the purpose of this blog is in any way, shape, or form compromised.
As for "It's none of your damn business"...you guys put this stuff on PUBLIC BLOGS, people!!! What did you expect??! If you don't want the happenings of your sex life discussed, don't put them out there for all the world to see.
ReplyDeleteLewis,
ReplyDeleteI felt like that is what you guys did to Brinlee and Parker. Ganged up on her and forced one side opinion on her. That is why I wrote that on my blog. Note I did ask them to be respectful. I wanted simply for you to see that it is much more than two random couples :) I think it would have been much better for conversation if you had copied and pasted the context of the one blog into yours instead of linking to hers.
Jess
Sorry, Army Wife...I've made clear my position on this. This isn't a platform for lifestyle choices such as your own, nor will it ever be. I'll leave your first long post up, and it can serve as your voice.
ReplyDeleteAnything more you wish to say about this needs to go through the "Contact Me" link at the top of the page.
"I felt like that is what you guys did to Brinlee and Parker. Ganged up on her and forced one side opinion on her. That is why I wrote that on my blog. Note I did ask them to be respectful. I wanted simply for you to see that it is much more than two random couples :) I think it would have been much better for conversation if you had copied and pasted the context of the one blog into yours instead of linking to hers."
ReplyDeleteThere was no circling of the wagons on my part or the part of any of my readers. There were no requests made for people to comment on hers or any other blog, nor was it even vaguely suggested. People responded of their own free will. I've no interest in coercing my readers. Most of them have experienced that and more in their lives.
@Brinlee,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarification.
Reading through all these comments, it's another case of someone's opinion being questioned.... only questioned, and not criticized.. that brings out the "you're being hurtful" arguments.
ReplyDeleteI saw this a couple years ago when Joe Fleener questioned the Vision Forum movement and never had a mean word to say about it. He only questioned it, yet the official response from Vision Forum from some lawyer was basically a "he called us bad names and some men are hurt by what he said" response. I couldn't believe it. I thought "Joe never said a mean thing. Can't something be questioned and discussed without the questioned group going into a reactionary mode?" I sit and wait for reasoned responses and all I see is emotion. And I have to side with the questioner.
I can't believe how many times I see this when someone questions some aspect of patriarchy or submission. The questioned party always gets defensive.
When those questioned can respond with Scripture instead of angry, emotional responses... I think real dialog can begin.
As someone who has self-abused (using spanking), there is a release, a "freedom" that comes. However, it is not a freedom that comes from God. It is only a very temporary solution to a bucket load of false guilt. That is why it has to be done for minor infractions, instead of only for genuinely sinful or immoral things.
ReplyDeleteAnything that results in bruising is too much. If a lesser punishment won't work, then there is something much deeper going on that needs to be addressed emotionally and spiritually. You won't cure it by physical abuse.
This Scripture used to bug me when I was self-abusing. Now I know why. "These are matters (Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch - commandments of men) which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in SELF-MADE RELIGION and SELF-ABASEMENT and SEVERE TREATMENT OF THE BODY but are of NO VALUE against fleshly indulgence." Colossians 2:20-23 Even Paul clearly states that severe treatment of the body does not help us stop sinning.
It sure didn't help me stop sinning. It just made me feel more and more false guilt that then got taken out in anger and other destructive ways on those around me. :-(
The more I learn about grace and God's love for me, the less I sin. The more I punished myself the more I sinned. Seriously. Paul knew what he was talking about!
"Anonymous". Thank you for sharing about grace and the quoting of Colossians 2:20-23. Very important and freeing words for those who are caught up in the commandments of men who, to quote that scripture again, have "the APPEARANCE of wisdom" but not the true wisdom.
ReplyDeleteI was reading James the other night when verses 2:12-13 popped out at me:
"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!"
We are to show mercy and give freedom to live a godly life, not be beating ourselves into submission through some self-punishment but to look to Christ who frees us by his own blood and sacrifice, not our efforts. We don't like having the effort taken off of us because ultimately we're trusting in someone else's work and power and not ours. We don't have control of the situation when we trust another.
But trusting another and stepping away from bondage is freeing. It's uncomfortable at first, but when you step away a while, you see it clearly for the what it is, and you can't believe how bondage had a hold on you.
Then you REALLY start helping people... and your life becomes a mission of freeing people from bondage. (But the Pharisees will try to "stone you", of course, like Stephen.)
To the Anonymous who self-abused. That was exactly my experience as well, and wow! The scripture verse is so powerful in light of all of this!
ReplyDeleteI have read that verse time and time again...and while I "got it" before...it just hit me in the face if that makes sense, LOL!
Beautiful Words of *LIFE*! ♥
Oh my gosh...I don't even have to go to the sight you listed, just reading the comments here, I already know...I KNOW what the BDSM life and the Satanic occult[Lilith, Venus, Masonry/Baphomet] is all about--I just posted on this on my blog the other day...
ReplyDeletethis is Satan, Brinlee I'll cut your b.s. to shreds, I will confront you to your face and call you on YOUR LIES,
there are Thousands of girls/women and men being exploited by this pro-sex BDSM cult in this nation as we speak--it is Tied into PORN, it is Tied into War-Snuff films PORN, trafficking of Sex Slaves, it is Tied into the pro-pedophilia cults that include both men pedophiles [child rapists] and females [butterfly kisses], it is Tied into the Monarch,
and why I know, I am a survivor, Barely...I will cut this garbage to shreds if it's the Last thing I do--why I speak out, why I refuse to be complacent, kind or tolerant of--I was victimized as a child, including by a female, I know how this Neo-Nazi technique of soul splitting through BDSM works and how through life if there is no deliverance how it is carried through and reinforced especially child sex abuse, and What it is,
is setting up the ALTARS, OF 'GODS AND GODDESSES--A.K.A. DEMONS' IN ONE'S MIND to control them, to do the work of Satan, why many are in prostitution/sex slavery/torture which is What it is, or in politics/corruption, or in fringe groups that lean to violence. It is IN these churches, or, CULTS, they are CULTS, they work like the fraternities in some universities that are also tied into the Hellenic CULT that also rely on subjugation/domination sex rape abuse, where many MEN are victimized btw.
IT partly comes from the worship of Lilith Queen of Heavens, this whole Creationalism order, that sets Adam up as the dominant, Lilith was the belief in Babylonia that she refused to be under Adam [sexually] and usurped, why Eve was created, that is One belief that is used to subjugate women-demonize them into internalizing and taking the rapes and abuse, Especially sodomy.
Sodomy is used to open the door to the demonic, a.k.a controls. There is more to this--but this is the spiritual side of it--why they also Prey on raping/molesting children and MARK MY WORDS, THESE CULTS AND THESE TEACHINGS ARE GOING TO LEAD NOT ONLY INTO CHILD RAPE BUT CHILD SACRIFICE--MARK MY WORDS.
It is the OCCULT--THAT IS NOW IN THE SO CALLED 'CHURCHES',
using scripture, AS DARK SENTENCES like it is in Sorcery, to manipulate the mind into complete submission and giving up will--free will--by degradation [sodomy rape], SHAME is a big one, Soul Splitting that WILL result as, a confusion as to what Love is, this is where Venus, the worship of, eros, is twisted into a willingness to mate with Satan, that is the ultimate occult outcome, which can be done spiritually--
a soul binding of sorts. This is why, the BDSM underground and no so underground movement LURES sex abuse victims, with the lie of 'taking their sexuality back' by role playing the dom and submit, to violence that would make your stomach turn--it is much like the sadomasochism of the Cross when they use those analogies, why it would be and is very easy to do the same using Christianity--the occult in the Catholic 'little secret societies in the day--tied into the mob', that's One example,
it is the adrenaline rush they get off the blood and pain of the victim--
continued
I will expose it, I will fight it, to the death. This garbage filth, needs to be exposed for WHAT it truly is, and it needs to be cut in pieces, like the King who raped women with the sword was cut into pieces by Samuel.
ReplyDeleteI have Zero tolerance for it--it is so soul destructive it's Not even funny--it does not surprise me in the least, that one of these CULTS adopts children from Liberia where voo-doo and temple shrines where they rape girls and force them to drink animal blood--don't think it isn't connected,
think again.
THESE TEACHINGS ARE FROM THE PITS OF HELL--they are Anti-Christ, they are Satanic, they are nothing more than the worship and sacrificing of children to Molech--
the Truth about the whole gender roles-submission CULT--beware, it can trigger, also I don't always use kind language, but IF you know the violence and sexual violence like I do, you'd understand--there is no love lost here for the men and women who do these human right crimes using God's name and scripture from me here...none at all. It has been HELL for me to have a trusting relationship with Jesus because of the damage done, so I am not tolerant and I can't stand these people who push these beliefs--they are soul assassins, that is All they are.
http://homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/2010/08/lets-cut-bullshit-ok-what-danvers.html
the child rapists that have Publicly bragged about how easy it is to get victims from fundie churches:
http://homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/2010/08/warrior-alert-protect-your-daughters.html
the Truth about the OUTCOME of submission/rape/prostitution that is and does center always around Porn/BDSM, it is hard to read--her testimony, her life, but if you Want to know the TRUTH about what happens to a girls/woman's soul, here you go
http://rmott62.wordpress.com/
the rise of child rape/sacrifice by so called evangelicals [cults] in Africa, that have killed Thousands and tortured, children
there are 180 documented Recent cases--they are tied into these fundie gender role/dom submit cults, in their 'missions' in Africa and elsewhere
http://www.perrybulwer.com/religion-and-child-abuse-news/category/child-sacrifice
I am a survivor, barely, I fight to keep my soul intact--I do not sugar coat this nor am I kind or nice about it--the Violence that escalates with these occult practices is sick--there IS no restoration for many of the victims, and I hate it, I will fight it, I will expose it, and I will do so, any means necessary.
If the Muslims tear these jerks and their female counterparts to shreds, I will not shed one tear. I know what they do--it is the banality of Evil like no other--they don't even deserve debate.
Brinlee if you keep submitting to this, it WILL destroy you, I know what I speak of--it is opening the door to your soul/mind for demons, strong Altars [see altars and groves in Old Testament, this was the beginning of my deliverance from these--from the soul binding of these, mine was Venus, used in the rituals as a small child, because I was young, I didn't have all the memories, but the physical manifestations Including All towns I lived in [masonry 33 degree] and all Men I ever met [tied into occult] and my entire adult life--was all connected AND controlled by these Altars--even After I came to Jesus, I never could figure out Why I leaned towards abusive cults/religious and authoritarian abuse--even After being enlightened by anti-authoritarianism, these Altars go deep and it is no messing around,
ReplyDeleteit is Satanic and it is SORCERY, my brother was also victimized, ritually abused and yes Religion was tied into it as well [Catholic/secret society] and he has never been able to marry/love and four children aborted as a result of,
my uncle, also victimized, it is a family line--that goes All the way back, tied into the Rome, Greek and Nordic pantheons, they are All connected, why God says, do NOT worship other gods OR their practices,
BDSM is from Egypt, Babylonia, Sumeria, Mayan, Aztec, it is tied into the whole hierarchy of Aryan [also Kali worship, Hindu] and Nordic Christianity [where these cults are gaining their strength in America, they rely heavily on Gender Roles that model after 'gods' and 'goddesses', ]
and the sexual BDSM demanded is yes, Occultist.
Do some research on Crowley, Satanism, the cults in the 60s,
where I was abused, in early childhood, Washington D.C., I am NOT joking here--
these altars will Tell you it's a merging with Jesus, they will LIE, they will confuse you, they'll have you SO SCREWED UP MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY
AND THEN
DESOLATION.
That is what the end result is--
the son of perdition is In the temple--
and it is living hell, to be free from and to accept Grace once you've merged, the Mixing of Wine, even IF by deception or abuse that is out of your control. Willful submission, makes it ten times worse...
this is WHY Peter said, Submit AS UNTO THE LORD, CHASTE AND PURE--
sober...
not Captive, silly women, led astray by various 'lusts'...
Wake up--before it's too late.
Jane
Jane
Wow Jane! Thanks for sharing that. I hope Brinlee read it, take it into very serious consideration
ReplyDeleteI read it. Thanks Jane.
ReplyDeleteBrinlee
I spent some time "blog hopping" from the second link you provided, Lewis. It was eye-opening.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to throw out a few thoughts/observations that I processed after reading. Forgive me if I don't mention where I found each idea, because I read a number of different blogs and don't remember exactly who said what. I hope this doesn't come across as harsh or rude to those who practice CDD, but instead as gentle observations.
While secular proponents of S&M/dd seem pretty straightforward about why they do what they do, the Christian sites I saw mostly insist that CDD (Christian domestic discipline) is not about sex, power, shame, or abuse.
However, in the contexts of their descriptions, this makes no sense.
If it's not about sex, then why the heavy emphasis on spanking naked and requiring the wife to assume demeaning positions?
If it's not about power, then why the need to strike (according to their own graphic descriptions) 50 or more hard, bruising blows, until the man feels that the wife demonstrates "submission"? Why did multiple blogs (again, some Christian) reveal the husband saying things like, "You WILL give me the respect I deserve!"? Many blogs I read described the man micromanaging (and punishing for) everything from what the woman eats for breakfast to whether or not she closes the door. Even 99.9% of complementarian Christian men I know would never dream of micromanaging their wives to this degree, much less punishing for it.
If it's not about shame, then why does virtually every woman I read (both Christian and secular) describe that she only feels forgiven and absolved of her sin after a harsh punishment? Why do dd women commonly use terms like "embarrassed" "needed to pay" "deserved it" and describe themselves as having "low self-esteem"?
And if it's not abusive, then again--why would it be necessary to administer 50+ heavy blows with multiple implements (from what I read, 4 or more implements are common during just one punishment) that leave a woman bruised and in great pain for an extended period of time? Defendants of DD scoff at the notion that it's abusive because it's "just a spanking" and can't be compared to punching, kicking, or starving. I think a "spanking" such as those described is more accurately described as a beating, no matter how it's administered.
The repeated denials of abuse by DD supporters reminds me of a personal incident during my days in the patriarchy movement Lewis writes about. A secular relative accused us children (teens at the time) of being brainwashed. We laughed hysterically that he could possibly think such a thing. We weren't brainwashed, we insisted! Except...that...we were. From the outside, he could see what we could not.
Another story comes to mind. I heard an abusive pastor refute an accusation that he and his fellow church leaders were "brutal." He laughed it off and said, "We aren't brutal. The Nazis were brutal! How can you say that we're brutal?" The inference was that because they weren't genocidal dictators then their abuse wasn't brutal. But just because they weren't Nazis didn't make their actions OK. By the same token, just because a man isn't beating a woman senseless or punching her in the face doesn't mean he isn't abusing her.
Again, please hear my gentle tone. These are things I'd say to my daughter if I learned she was in a DD relationship. My heart goes out to women whose husbands administer DD.
Beautiful thoughts, Anonymous. Thank you for commenting.
ReplyDeleteAn observation I'd like to make concerning the "friends" of Brinlee in the DD crowd...
ReplyDeleteEverything argument I've read, here and elsewhere, seems to take for a lot of things for granted, and seems WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more concerned with whatever possibility may or may not exist for someone like Brinlee to (God forbid!) LEAVE the cult that is DD than concerned about Brinlee personally. That dynamic, in and of itself, is why I just referred to it as the "cult" of DD. It's cultic.
It's as if they all are reading from the exact same talking points memo..."this was MY idea, not my husband's...", "...this is about discipline, not sex...", "...it's crazy to suggest that I enjoy this...", "...this isn't abuse, it's beautiful...'
Those all line up perfectly with the talking points that used to be employed by many of my readers who used to be trapped in spiritually abusive families and cultic movements. They will freely admit that they had been coerced, subject to numerous mind control tactics.
Those mindsets are the reason my blog exists.
And something else to consider along with the first point I made...Cultic movements and spiritually abusive groups that use coercive persuasion and mind control (like those I write about) ALSO value the group and group doctrine and practices over the person, just like you guys seem to do.
The first link:
ReplyDeleteI want to laugh so hard, if I didn't feel so bad for the guys who are forced to become something super-human and super-christian just to please over-reaching parents when they only need to worry about pleasing God. I'm reading a book right now - What He MUST Be (If He Wants to Marry My Daughter.) by Voddie Baucham. Sickening stuff. The courtship list could easily fit into his view on courtship...
The second link...
I can imagine, if I had been exposed to "christian" dd in the early days of my marriage that I would've taken the idea to DH and asked if we could do something like that. It would've been "consensual" but still not right.
Just for the record, DH would NEVER have agreed to it, ever. Ever. He would've sent me to counseling.
Knowing what I do now I can look back and see that at that time I felt "better" after punishment. I've always been prone to cutting or self-hate, self-multilation and low self-esteem. I feel "forgiven" after I've "atoned" or "repented." It makes me feel like I am "doing" toward my moral progress or toward my salvation.
Nothing - NOTHING - could be less Biblical. Or less healthy for any human.
I also am very curious why the question of "Do you get to spank your husband" is never answered... ?
Brinlee turned off her comments so I justed post a quick comment that I hope she reads...Please don't see all our comments as "judgemental" and nosing into your business. I read through the comments on your blog and at the time of my reading only saw one truly hateful comment (it was also full of profanity).
ReplyDeleteBrinlee, must of us came from horrific abuse whether it be physical, mental, spiritual, sexual or all of the above.
I had PTSD so bad that I can't walk into a church without wanting to barf.
I think I was so upset after reading your blog because I was beat by the pastor in front of my parents for an imagined infraction. When I read of your husband beating you I could only see myself having to thank my pastor for saving my soul by beating the evil out of me...and I wanted to scream, scream, scream.
Brinlee, we aren't judging you, honey. We don't want you to be us, limping through multiple painful memories.
The alarm in our comments was misconstrued by the DD community as "judging"...its not. We feel as though you and your husband are standing in front of oncoming train. We aren't going to mildly slap you on the back and tell you to do whatever feels best. We were on the track...and the train hit us.
I would be concerned for your husband's career as well...can you imagine what would happen if someone turned him in while you had those wounds on you?
Be safe, Brinlee. Be happy. Much love and many prayers.
oops..meant just posted...:)
ReplyDeleteThe courtship interrogation is unbelievable. I can't understand why anyone would agree to that.
ReplyDeleteThe 2nd link is very disturbing and just plain makes me angry. I cannot fathom anyone thinking that DD is acceptable. No where in scripture can you find verses to substantiate this practice as even remotely ok with God. How demeaning and degrading. It makes me angry to know how perverted this is and that people actually believe this is of God. My heart aches for you Brinlee. Please wake up. Listen to people on here. Being spanked by your husband is not normal! You are crazy to believe that it is!
Linda Reynolds
I posted the link above, but, considering the ongoing discussion, the verse bears quoting in its entirety:
ReplyDelete"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:18).
If your relationship to your husband or wife involves fear and punishment, then it is not love as Christ loves the church. Full stop.
the courtship interogation is humorous, ridiculous, and much too real! :( i can't imagine how a guy could sit thro such self-righteous parental grilling... seriously people! :)Really?! Does he have to answer all that?! Where's the questionaire for HER? whoever said courtship is pushed waay to fast had it right... so much of that stuff is what a girl wants to find out about a guy OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, lol. and IMO its only her business too...
ReplyDeletehope i didnt say too much :)
and what about the picture on the top of the "eager (??) chaperone" between the couple? who looks forward to a date like that?!
ReplyDeleteas far as the other site... i commented there... I definately think its abusive, illegal, emotionally harmful, etc, but as long as she's willing to live like that she will... Brinlee herself will have to wake up to the reality. (does that make any sense... )
"...if you look at many of the older John Wayne movies they had dd scenes in them."
ReplyDeleteOh, does this mean I can slap or punch my husband in the face when I'm mad at him??!! I've seen Maureen O' Hara do it in the movies so it must be normal healthy behavior! *insert sarcasm*
Wow. These DD nuts should not even be given the time of day. There are no words to decribe their error... and incredible ignorance.
Lewis, I have to say that this:
ReplyDelete"I repeat, I'm the 'head' of this blog, and I won't hesitate to dole out cyber-spankings if the purpose of this blog is in any way, shape, or form compromised" --
Just made me laugh and laugh. I remember on another forum I frequent, which is run by a woman who is fed up with all this patriarchy business, a man came and started throwing his weight around, to set all us rebellious females straight. She said to him, "I do not permit you to teach or have authority over a woman here. So shut up and listen, or go away."
It was priceless. So was your comment.
I wanted to respond to Brinlee's DD Journal Entry. I am a Christian and recently pulling away from Vision Forum, Voddie Baucham, the Pearls, and dogmatic homeschool only folks. Though I've been surrounded by conservative Christians for many years, I have never, ever, EVER, in all my Christian life read or heard of anything like Brinlee's DD Journal Entry. It was so shocking to me that I couldn't sleep that night. I felt like I had violated my mind with perverse images and stories, which I am not in the habit of doing. Last night I spent an hour or so reading Galatians, Ephesians, and Philippians, trying to read these books both from the mind of a DD participator, and from my own perspective. As hard as I tried to look at these books from the DD perspective, I could not understand how these books could be misinterpreted in the way that DD is practiced by Brinlee and Parker. More than a few times "gentle" and "gentleness" is given as instruction on how to treat fellow Christians and wives. As I pondered this all day yesterday, I tried to put myself in Brinlee's shoes. If I had cussed out my husband's co-worker, and if he was greatly offended by this (I don't think he would be), but IF he was, what would that conversation and confrontation have looked like in our relationship? Here’s what that confrontation might have looked like in my relationship with my husband.
ReplyDeleteMe: (husband's name), I have some bad news. Do you have a minute, so I can explain?
Him: Sure, go ahead. I hope I'm not in trouble. Har, har.
Me: I did a really ugly thing, and I feel terrible. I hope you can forgive me when I'm done explaining.
Him: OK. This sounds serious. Go ahead.
Me: Well, you know how that creepy guy keeps calling us, and you know how his number always shows up as blocked?
Him: Yeah - I hate that guy. Maybe we should get our numbers changed.
Me: Well, today I thought he called again, because the caller ID said, "Undisclosed." So, I picked up the phone, and in a fury I cussed the guy out. I was so mad that I let him have it with every word in the book.
Him: Good! I hope he never calls again.
Me: It turns out that it wasn't him on the other line. It was (co-worker's name). Long pause. Can you possibly forgive me for cussing out your co-worker? I know you must be really embarrassed and probably mad at me, which I totally understand. (sheepish grin)
Him: You must have been really frustrated to let out all those cuss words. You hardly ever cuss. You must have been at the end of your rope. Come here. Let me give you a hug. {{long hug}} (While hugging) Of course I forgive you. It was an honest mistake. One I could have easily made myself. I was about to cuss out the guy myself if he called again. I would have done the same thing. Let's just explain this whole thing to (co-workers name), and I'm sure he'll understand. Come on, let me help you make dinner. Can I cut up the vegetables for you?
THE END
I'm not saying that all the confrontations between DH and I are this nice and tidy, actually we had an ugly one a few days ago. But, they always end in a nice big hug with both of us understanding and forgiving each other. I think that's what a healthy Christian marriage, or any healthy marriage for that matter, would function.
I hope if Brinlee reads this, that she will ask her husband to "try" this method or "tool" out for 30, 60, or 90 days as a trial and see how the marriage feels after that. I read on their blog that they think of DD as a tool in the marriage tool box, and that when they first got into it, they decided to just try it. Why not try this method out? It couldn't hurt to try - you could always go back to spanking when the trial period is over, and the only thing that would be lost would be some blemishes and bruises.
I remember reading on Brinlee's blog about the speeding incident.
ReplyDeleteI got caught speeding *VERY HIGH* over the limit. Almost 30 mph over.
I was coming off a stretch of road that had a 65 limit, and I was doing 70.
All of the sudden the limit changed to 40, and I didn't see it, because I had a lot on my mind.
I got pulled over.
When I got home, I ran into the house crying my eyes out. We were poor, and our ticket was $400. My husband had a twinkle in his eye, and told me it was Ok. That he would forgive me. I begged him over and over again to forgive me and that I was sorry.
Never got spanked for that one. That was six years ago, and I have never gotten a speeding ticket since.
Spankings were not needed to cure me of my speeding habbits.
And a kind husband who understood and didn't berate me, gave me confidence to go out and drive again.
After reading the first link I kind of chuckled at how the McDonalds seemed to have covered every imaginable issue with their suitor questions... but the second link reminds me that they did miss one.
ReplyDeleteI have only just found your blog yesterday, and it appears that Brinlee has now set her blog to private. I hope this isn't a reflection of her being submissive to the point of not wanting to face what is happening to her.
ReplyDeleteI never even knew such a thing as CDD existed. Despite my past links with Patriarchy/Quiverfull/To Train Up a Child etc. I am just horrified and it hasn't really sunk in yet that such a thing is real within Christian circles!
kiwiaussie...Glad to have you here.
ReplyDeleteTo my knowledge, Brinlee is no longer in a DD situation, and she and her family are doing well.
Parker and Brinlee continue to live happily in their consensually agreed "DD Situation" and are doing very well.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous...Not according to my own personal communication with Brinlee. If you have proof otherwise, I'd love to see/hear it.
ReplyDeleteIn areas of deep control, like DD, the controlled is not allowed to let how she really feels show.
ReplyDeleteEven in less 'controlling' situations, where DD is not the issue, but wifely submission is heavily taught, she's not just supposed to submit. She must joyfully submit, whether she likes it or not, whether she wants to or not.
That is how deep and abasing DD and other forms of control can be.