tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post9124121979979891913..comments2024-01-04T15:56:19.156-05:00Comments on Commandments of Men: The Joke Was On Me (Part Eleven)Lewishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-41736981515973178262014-11-22T00:07:09.999-05:002014-11-22T00:07:09.999-05:00Right can't overshadow wrong. If you're do...Right can't overshadow wrong. If you're doing something wrong, no matter what situation you're in, it is still wrong. Even if you have the purest of motives when lying or stealing or doing whatever else, it's still wrong, although anyone can trick themselves into thinking that their motives somehow make their actions okay. Maciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417318062844842898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-49927727581903399082012-02-27T13:43:55.939-05:002012-02-27T13:43:55.939-05:00Well, I'll comment, if I may. It's wrong ...Well, I'll comment, if I may. It's wrong to eat your pet, and it's wrong to eat someone else's pet. But a feral cat or dog is not a pet. Nevertheless, I agree with your point-- but I see right and wrong not so much as relative, but as often overlapping due to the nature of reality. Is it wrong to lie? Yes. Is it wrong to lie to fascist soldiers when you are concealing an innocent person they are seeking? No, because the Right of helping the innocent overshadows the Wrong of the lie. Is it wrong to lie about something small in order to not hurt someone's feelings? That one's harder. Which is the more important Right-- telling the truth, or sparing someone needless pain? The situation and the individuals involved will nuance the response. But I don't see that as quite the same thing as right and wrong being relative.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-16657731742505699752012-02-27T01:21:59.880-05:002012-02-27T01:21:59.880-05:00"Wrong is wrong is wrong. Anytime and any pla..."Wrong is wrong is wrong. Anytime and any place. Wrong is wrong."<br /><br />This is the only bit I have taken an issue with so far in your writing. Wrong is not always wrong. Wrong and right are relative, based on what culture/household you were raised in. Yes, obviously I agree that so much about this situation was wrong and evil. I am speaking in a more general sense, I guess. For example, we Americans adore our pets and the general American public is quite fond of pets... but pretty much any undeveloped nation has a huge problem with wild packs of dogs and feral cat colonies, and subsequently see these animals as annoying, or a potential food source. Eating Rover is not appealing to probably any American, and certainly could be seen as wrong... but is it?Laurennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-55353524797247433432011-05-17T13:47:04.066-04:002011-05-17T13:47:04.066-04:00Hopewell...It wasn't related to P/QF, and wasn...Hopewell...It wasn't related to P/QF, and wasn't any movement that was well-known. It was pretty small. If I were to name it, no one here would've ever heard of it.<br /><br />Over time, yes, I did want to get her out of her environment before she became as crazy as the rest of them.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-37830833681376489522011-05-17T13:37:38.097-04:002011-05-17T13:37:38.097-04:00Now I'm trying to figure out which movement th...Now I'm trying to figure out which movement the family started...Did you come to feel (in a non religious sense) that you were her potential "savior" from the batcrap....? Poor girl. I really, really feel for her (and for you).Hopewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02510172065585770709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-44093002049222005352011-05-17T02:29:28.787-04:002011-05-17T02:29:28.787-04:00"Somehow, in their world, a wedding ceremony ..."Somehow, in their world, a wedding ceremony flipped a plethora of magic switches that instantaneously changed outlooks, behaviors, emotions, moral parameters."<br /><br />So true. So true. I have been seeing the analogy of the switch for years, about sex after marriage, in mainstream Christianity. You're taught, "dirty, dirty, dirty!!!!", all your life, then, when you get married, somehow, you're supposed to "flip the switch" to "wonderful, good, pure!" <br /><br />So true about all the other items in that list.Incongruous Circumspectionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16232186225573312896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-59220534877046357652011-05-14T15:08:10.077-04:002011-05-14T15:08:10.077-04:00No worries, Aileen. It wasn't out of line. Eve...No worries, Aileen. It wasn't out of line. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the situation I'm describing in this story, and I can understand where those who think "God did you a favor" or "You'd have suffered for the rest of your life" are coming from, even though I disagree with much of that type of thinking.<br /><br />That said...I don't want anyone to lose sight of the primary message that I'm trying to convey...that she and I will never, ever be allowed to know what our future would've looked like because a screwed-up religious belief system and lifestyle created screwed up people who did some screwed up things to me and to her.<br /><br />She may have become the wonderful, loving, devoted wife I hoped she would become. She may have been a horrible spouse. We'll never get the opportunity to know either way because of the people <em>AROUND</em> her - not because of me or her - and to me, that's the tragedy. That's what I want people to take from all of this.<br /><br />I loved her completely, and would've loved her completely even <em>through</em> a lifetime of the baggage others created if she would've kept her promises of devotion to me/us. Ultimately, she was coerced to be devoted <em>to the baggage</em>, and that was the one thing that made her not only unreachable, but unlovable - as I was given no access TO love her.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-61528625539888047212011-05-13T22:35:29.671-04:002011-05-13T22:35:29.671-04:00I am sorry if my comment was out of line. I unders...I am sorry if my comment was out of line. I understand simplymerry's point about not knowing the full situation or the people involved. Please pardon me for being too quick to speak. <br /><br />Peace to you, Lewis and those who comment here...<br /><br />AileenAileennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-32637403594174923752011-05-13T15:40:05.045-04:002011-05-13T15:40:05.045-04:00I've seen a trend of a type of comment through...I've seen a trend of a type of comment throughout your series, an attempt at comfort perhaps... and while I won't bother speaking to any particular comment, I do want to speak to the sentiment.<br /><br />"If you *had* married ****, this probably would have happened/not changed/ruined things/etc, so that you guys broke up is probably all for the best."<br /><br />That just isn't comfort, folks. That almost isn't right. Lewis loved this girl, and what's more, he knew this girl, which almost none of us did. I think we should be giving Lewis at least the benefit of the doubt that she was, per se, worthy of his love and would have made him a great wife.<br /><br />Whatever she would have done had she married him is speculation, and to be pessimistic about that speculation in order to try to comfort Lewis is in some ways insulting to those girls of us who have left (especially the ones who left "by" marriage), and insulting to Lewis' love for her.simplymerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00372177541938492195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-54251354768980381282011-05-11T22:52:44.390-04:002011-05-11T22:52:44.390-04:00It's that perfect family photo exterior that m...It's that perfect family photo exterior that makes it sell, IMO. The problem is, the photo is in 2D, but life happens in 3D, and it's in the hole left by the missing dimension that all of the dysfunction resides.<br /><br />There's height and there's width, but no depth in the patriarchal lifestyle. <em>Everything</em> is about the surface.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-60892305257943168282011-05-11T22:14:06.237-04:002011-05-11T22:14:06.237-04:00Fringe is right--
(as in, lunatic fringe.)
Aile...Fringe is right--<br /><br /> (as in, lunatic fringe.)<br /><br />Aileen: Yes, it was the hsing crowd where we got the biggest dose, but they were mixed in throughout every church I attended going back to the mid eighties. <br /><br />IMO, the fruits of the doctrine took awhile to surface. Looked pretty good at the beginning, from the distance of a few pews over, especially if you liked kids and worried about the moral decay of the youth of America :) And I remember holding that first VF catalog in my grubby little paws and feeling like I'd found Nirvana. Took awhile for some of the creepier books and such to make the product line.Conniehttp://www.conniebrz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-15939465725153188192011-05-11T18:32:58.901-04:002011-05-11T18:32:58.901-04:00I heard of VF, etc. through the home schooling wor...I heard of VF, etc. through the home schooling world. I think that is how they reach most of their audience. It doesn't surprise me that you had not heard of them since you had no connection with home schooling. I know what Connie means, though, about thinking that of course, everyone must be familiar with these movements and people while they loom so large in one's own life.Aileennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-26415744598567402922011-05-11T16:59:07.078-04:002011-05-11T16:59:07.078-04:00You probably could, Connie. So many of these deals...You probably could, Connie. So many of these deals all go down much the same.<br /><br />Yeah, I'm serious. Until 4 years ago I'd never even heard of this stuff. I'd heard Gothard's name a handful of times in passing over the years, but I didn't know anything about him other than that people in my world considered him "fringe". Hadn't heard of ANY of the VF crowd.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-72066281992092816732011-05-11T16:53:33.372-04:002011-05-11T16:53:33.372-04:00Every time you write something like, "At this...Every time you write something like, "At this point, I still didn't know the scoop on the patriarchal doctrines, still didn't know who Gothard, VF, or any of the rest of the patriarchal crowd was..." I feel a little slap somewhere around the cerebral cortex. You mean there's actually folks out there who *don't* run into this bunch on a regular basis? Who knew... <br /><br />Been tangling with this mess for three decades now and, I'm telling you, I could write the script for parts twelve through twenty, no problem.Conniehttp://www.conniebrz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-60230220018701411472011-05-11T16:38:58.541-04:002011-05-11T16:38:58.541-04:00That her willingness to learn from you was not so ...<em>That her willingness to learn from you was not so much a growing understanding of truth, but partly about replacing her patriarch with the new "patriarch" she came to love?</em><br /><br />When she was with me, I believe it was mainly the former. I didn't encourage the latter and spoke <em>strongly</em> against it. When she was away from me and surrounded by them, it was probably a combination which eventually they steered toward the latter, then set about to prove to her that I was unworthy to be her "spiritual head" - her new patriarch. Yikes.<br /><br />And you can ask anything you'd like. No offense at all.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-30476617472279745042011-05-11T15:20:29.018-04:002011-05-11T15:20:29.018-04:00If what I ask here is somehow offensive (I have As...If what I ask here is somehow offensive (I have Aspergers, I can't allways tell), please forgive me:<br /><br />Your ex, din't she perhaps show a willingness to be won over to your way of thinking because she believe the central tenets of patriarchy? Believed she should follow her man, and while unmarried she should believe the religious ideas of her father, and if she's planning to marry you she should shift to follow your views?<br /><br />That her willingness to learn from you was not so much a growing understanding of truth, but partly about replacing her patriarch with the new "patriarch" she came to love?Rethahttp://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-74850308818390517482011-05-11T13:27:03.249-04:002011-05-11T13:27:03.249-04:00The ties would've been minimal. We'd have ...The ties would've been minimal. We'd have been on the other side of the continent from them, and clear boundaries would've been established.<br /><br />Perhaps it still would've been a pain in our rear. I can't say. At least she would've been in a MUCH healthier situation here.<br /><br />It would've all been dependent on her ability to heal from all of it, I suppose.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-58727097591515695772011-05-11T10:39:40.561-04:002011-05-11T10:39:40.561-04:00Lewis, I sincerely do not see how you could have h...Lewis, I sincerely do not see how you could have had a happy, healthy family of your own if you had been tied to this extended family for the rest of your life. I believe there are some things which love can not overcome. I am wishing you all the best for a healthy present and future...<br /><br />AileenAileennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-88788514615300510782011-05-11T05:45:41.443-04:002011-05-11T05:45:41.443-04:00No wonder the father had issues if this was what t...No wonder the father had issues if this was what the grandfather was like.Ashnoreply@blogger.com