tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post149811686226308011..comments2024-01-04T15:56:19.156-05:00Comments on Commandments of Men: PatternsLewishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-35991384257021116592012-01-16T11:44:02.938-05:002012-01-16T11:44:02.938-05:00I completely understand where you are coming from ...I completely understand where you are coming from regarding the Tebow criticism. My biggest issue is that I think we do need to make a distinction between some of the things he's doing.<br /><br />Did Jesus instruct his followers to pray in secret - essentially that prayer is to be about God and the person praying and nothing else? Yes. and I think that Tebow is clearly in the wrong here. I think you are right in that he doesn't have bad motives...but he is still wrong.<br /><br />I differ with you in that I don't have an issue with him thanking Jesus Christ in PCs and media interviews. Him talking about the fact that his faith is important to him is not an issue. I see this as being the "salt and light" that Jesus commanded in the same passage.chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-82044814884137372652012-01-14T15:15:28.580-05:002012-01-14T15:15:28.580-05:00Yes.Yes.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-65285674021404116162012-01-14T14:30:19.884-05:002012-01-14T14:30:19.884-05:00I am not a Christian myself, but I understand and ...I am not a Christian myself, but I understand and respect that, for Christian victims of patriarchal culture, faith in Jesus Christ can be a powerful source of healing. And I think that's great.<br /><br />But here's the thing: Patriarchy is not a phenomenon unique to Christianity or Christian culture. It is a social evil that manifests itself in many ways around the world, and most of its victims are not professing Christians and never will be. So faith and Jesus is not a fix for everybody who is hurt by patriarchy. Nor does it need to be. Different people have different sources of healing.<br /><br />So, that said, I'm all for people getting "worked up" over the evils of patriarchy wherever it manifests. Because Christian faith might be a source of healing for certain INDIVIDUAL victims who happen to be Christian, but it is not the solution to the evil of patriarchy as a worldwide, transnational, trans-cultural, human institution. People engaging in strong speech and strong action against it is. In my opinion, we need MORE people getting worked up, not fewer.Petticoat Philosophernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-21285814162169491292012-01-14T14:11:51.395-05:002012-01-14T14:11:51.395-05:00I have been following this whole thing on here wit...I have been following this whole thing on here with much interest. And while I certainly don't want to put words in Lewis' mouth, it does kind of seem like you're missing the point. Especially here:<br /><br />"This statement is a reason why I am not making your connection between Jim Jones and Tebow. If this is your description of Tebow -- it simply can't be the same for Jim Jones."<br /><br />From what I can tell, he's not comparing the two men, he's comparing the responses to them. The stimulus of those responses is not really the object, it's the responses themselves he's analyzing. In the process of doing so, he may say some things you disagree with about Tebow, but that does not mean that the posts are about Tebow, or that he's trying to imply that Tebow=Jim Jones. My two cents.Petticoat Philosophernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-4707412806644554292012-01-14T13:31:53.523-05:002012-01-14T13:31:53.523-05:00Folks...If you have an adversarial message to comm...Folks...If you have an adversarial message to communicate to me, use the email address listed under "Contact Me" at the top of the page. Putting your message in a comment, which you ask me to not publish, leaves me at a considerable disadvantage - I can't respond without doing so publically.<br /><br />Any more adversarial "do not publish" comments may very well get published.<br /><br />If you want it private, EMAIL ME.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-63183433423357479002012-01-13T23:04:15.543-05:002012-01-13T23:04:15.543-05:00"I don't think he is a hypocrite- but I t...<em>"I don't think he is a hypocrite- but I think we agree that if he is, it's unintentional?"</em><br /><br />Absolutely.<br /><br /><em>"I wonder what would happen if there were a Christian pro athlete who was a pacifist and vehemently anti-war?? that would be interesting...I am not sure how that would be received either."</em><br /><br />Now THAT would cause some fireworks. The evangelical community would reject him or her outright. No question. The fundamentalist sector would be foaming at the mouth. As I've learned from writing this blog, the only thing fundamentalists hate more than the devil are Christians who disagree with them. Gays, Muslims, "sinners" in general? The hatred fundamentalists have for them is <b>nothing</b> compared to the hatred they have for Christians who disagree with them.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-32341067580675046982012-01-13T23:02:01.008-05:002012-01-13T23:02:01.008-05:00And by the way- I digress, but I would still love ...And by the way- I digress, but I would still love to hear any background info an "Civil War Homeschool Balls"...now HERE is an example in my mind of "doing things under the Christian banner" that would not be very Jesus-like? Especially if a minority of these people actually think that the South was right?Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-8529454266622982432012-01-13T22:49:54.015-05:002012-01-13T22:49:54.015-05:00Well, I understand the point...but I still partial...Well, I understand the point...but I still partially disagree with the emphasis.I don't think he is a hypocrite- but I think we agree that if he is, it's unintentional?<br /><br />I checked out the Salon article referenced above, "What if Tebow was Muslim.."<br /><br />This is certainly a valid thing to explore. What if Tebow was ---(fill in the blank). But I think the article was rather disingenuous because the examples of Muslim athletes that were targeted as being unpopular and disliked were two individuals who took VERY public positions that clearly put them outside the mainstream of middle America. I am not saying their ideas were right or wrong- only that if you take extreme political positions, you may find the public turns against you!<br /><br />Mohammed Ali refused to go to Vietnam and the other guy, I believe, refused to sing the Star Spangled Banner. Now, I think the Viet Nam War was a horrific thing. If I had been a bit older then, I would have probably been marching against it. Whether or not someone sings the National Anthem, burns the flag or whatever- I think that is their right.But we are talking public opinion here- much of mainstream America is VERY offended when people are not supportive of the military and might be hacked off by some overpaid athlete refusing to sing a patriotic song. My point is, I think it was the anti- mainstream American patriotism that made these guys unpopular. I think that no matter what their religion, lots of people get defensive when some person speaks out against a war we are involved in or America in general.<br /><br />I remember when I was a kid, the construction workers in NYC having verbal battles with war protesters...and I remember those bumper stickers "America- Love it or Leave it". <br /><br />If the reporter wants to write a serious story, he will find Muslim athletes or other celebrities who are more traditional, all American patriotic types- and I am sure there are plenty of them-and write about their experiences. This article almost plays into the false belief that Muslim Americans are somehow less patriotic than Americans of other religions.<br /><br />I wonder what would happen if there were a Christian pro athlete who was a pacifist and vehemently anti-war?? that would be interesting...I am not sure how that would be received either.Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-68560593642867581942012-01-13T19:55:21.032-05:002012-01-13T19:55:21.032-05:00I'd also like to add...
Even though he isn...I'd also like to add...<br /><br />Even though he isn't a very good QB, the kid is a <em>phenomenal</em> competitor and works hard at his craft. I wish people could just appreciate THAT, and that the religion could be left out of it. Tebow's intent on that not happening, though.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-1897643003743046562012-01-13T19:51:47.017-05:002012-01-13T19:51:47.017-05:00I don't think Tebow's a bad kid. I think h...I don't think Tebow's a bad kid. I think he's just an immature kid, spiritually and emotionally, anyway. I do think he's hypocritical (again, not intentionally). But, he's just doing what he's been taught is right, even if it's wrong.<br /><br />Do you believe he'd wear Matthew 6:5-6 on his eyeblack? The answer to that should answer most of the other questions raised by Tebow-mania.<br /><br />And the larger point still stands - Tebow isn't the problem, he's just a vehicle. If we'll support and celebrate him doing things under the Christian banner which are opposed to the things Christ taught, what OTHER things will we support and celebrate under the Christian banner?<br /><br />This is where the Christian community is showing itself no different than the folk at Jonestown. We'd like to think we're discerning and incapable of being duped, yet Tebow shows us we aren't.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-13246524666157970802012-01-13T19:50:56.807-05:002012-01-13T19:50:56.807-05:00"Since there are many examples of public mini...<em>"Since there are many examples of public ministry, both by Jesus and his followers, could we not understand this passage as more condemning of hypocrisy than of public expression of religion?"</em><br /><br />I think the passage is pretty direct (there really isn't much between the lines of it) - public expressions of the rituals of religion, in and of themselves, ARE hypocrisy, that we shouldn't be people of faith with the intent of being SEEN as people of faith. We're to be known by our love for one another rather than by our prayer life or by any public religious ritual. I DO think Tebow's a hypocrite - but not an intentional hypocrite. He isn't mature enough to know the difference. He's just doing what he's been indoctrinated to believe is "witnessing" and his duty. But he isn't really witnessing for Christ. He's witnessing for Christianity and Christian culture. The reaction of the evangelical community, summed up, is "Look at him praying publically! What a warrior for the faith!" Impossible to reconcile that with Matthew 6:5-6 pretty much any way one would spin it.<br /><br />Paul, for instance, had a much broader ministry than praying to be seen praying, wearing verses on his face or clothing, and saying "I'd like to thank my personal Savior, Jesus Christ" and leaving it at that. People who do those things are doing them to be seen because they confuse those things with "witnessing", and it's extremely shallow. A ministry is something deeper. A ministry could tell you WHY Jesus is being thanked...without cliche.<br /><br />And Tebow IS absolutely, beyond ANY argument, doing these things to be seen. He's been clear about his intent. He believes these things are "witnessing", and he feels its his duty to be VERY public about his religion.<br /><br />I also find it troubling that a reporter can ask him about the game, and he makes SURE that we know that the time he was able to spend with some little sick child before or after the game is/was far more important to him, or that he'd write a book that tells us about his giving to those in need, et cetera. Those things seem to be in direct contrast to the things Jesus taught - and practiced. My concern is that the evangelical community can't readily see where these things are "off" - which is what I'm getting at in this piece, and tried to demonstrate in the "Dumbing Down" post - because it says a great deal about us and where our true allegiance is, whether with Christ, Christianity, or conservative Christian culture. If we were on board with Christ, we'd place more value on the way he said to go about things than on whether or not Tebow is championing Christianity and its culture. <br /><br />Tebow himself says that God has no bearing on the outcome of football games - so why's he constantly kneeling to "thank" God for something he says God isn't involved in? If he were eating lunch at Red Lobster, and he got up from his chair and "Tebowed" in the aisle to ask the blessing on his food, we'd consider it rude and over the top. Why aren't we (generally speaking) applying the same ettiquette elsewhere? (continued...)Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-47277439585891938062012-01-13T18:48:57.389-05:002012-01-13T18:48:57.389-05:00OK, I think I have figured out where I am not tota...OK, I think I have figured out where I am not totally comfortable with the Tebow critique, Lewis. Feel free to dismantle my thoughts, because I am far from an expert in Biblical interpretation (obviously!).<br /><br />I am uncomfortable with the way the directive from Jesus to pray "in secret" is being used here. I try to run screaming from people who want to take literally what is meant symbolically-you know, I spent years flirting with the ATI- Old Testament Law stuff, God forbid. They always pick and choose the things that they want to enforce, and ignore the context and/or the intent. I always thought that this was an example like the one where Jesus basically says we have to "hate" our own family to follow him. Clearly His followers still loved their families and maintained relationships with them. I think Jesus was using dramatic comparison here to make an important point. Since there are many examples of public ministry, both by Jesus and his followers, could we not understand this passage as more condemning of hypocrisy than of public expression of religion ? Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I think the idea is that public prayer DONE ONLY TO PROMOTE YOURSELF (hypocrisy), with no belief, is despicable. <br /><br />I don't think Tebow is a hypocrite in that I think he really is a believer. Is he going about expressing that belief in an immature or show-offish way? That's a valid argument. <br /><br />Oh well, I know many of you will disagree, but I don't want to feel like a hypocrite myself, by picking one Bible verse that seems to be more to make a point than to be taken word for word, and being 100 %literal with it. And, I am a mom of kids in their 20s, and I guess I would hate for them to be misjudged in their integrity...<br /><br />Please know that I find the commercialization of Christianity to be repulsive. Who was it that said " We are so immunized with little doses of Christianity, that when we are adults we seldom catch the real thing"? That's what I think of when I walk in to a big Christian bookstore. But we are talking about a person here, not a book or a t-shirt or a bracelet.<br /><br />Dismantle away!Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-87522102328034356252012-01-13T09:26:59.107-05:002012-01-13T09:26:59.107-05:00Oh I know. :) I'm an Australian who lives in t...Oh I know. :) I'm an Australian who lives in the US now. :)Katy-Anne Binsteadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528465833214550644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-35055055517305322642012-01-12T22:46:41.655-05:002012-01-12T22:46:41.655-05:00I thought I'd throw out a link since that seem...I thought I'd throw out a link since that seems to be the trend... just came across this article on Salon:<br /><br />http://www.salon.com/2012/01/12/what_if_tim_tebow_were_muslim/Rebecca Newmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03935383254039552080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-55798679435917928002012-01-12T21:33:24.179-05:002012-01-12T21:33:24.179-05:00"I don't think I've warranted what yo...<em>"I don't think I've warranted what you wrote above."</em><br /><br />I do. <br /><br />You've done nothing but look for something <em>wrong</em> with most of my writing, as if I'm subject to some journalistic code, even bringing up standards of evidence required in "ex parte" legal proceedings or something or other.<br /><br />This is a blog.<br /><br />If you disagree with the substance of my posts, <em>discuss your disagreement with the substance of my posts</em>. If you don't understand my posts, you can always contact me privately for clarification. <br /><br />If you think, for instance, that THIS post was trying to compare Jones and Tebow - you've missed the substance entirely, maybe even intentionally, depending on your predisposition toward me, and focused on the vehicles and sensationalism.<br /><br />This post was about US. Most of the other Tebow posts have either been about US or about fundamentalist Christianity, brainwashing, though reform, propaganda, et cetera.<br /><br />I can't even begin to put into words how frustrating it is to keep being misread on a subject, write something with the specific intent to <em>bring people to the substance</em>, and then have someone deduce that the post was about making a connection between "Jim Jones and Tim Tebow".Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-24404817025761200322012-01-12T21:15:24.719-05:002012-01-12T21:15:24.719-05:00Hi Lewis I thought i would post this http://appro...Hi Lewis I thought i would post this http://approachingdamascus.com/2012/01/12/if-i-wer-tim-tebows-pastor/ It's rather well written you are not aloneAdriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-55071461662813695362012-01-12T21:12:20.629-05:002012-01-12T21:12:20.629-05:00lewis, i saw an awesome you tube video where Dr. S...lewis, i saw an awesome you tube video where Dr. Solomon Asch conducted his famous experiments his study of social conformity (Asch 1956). The results of these experiments are to help us to understand how healthy and intelligent people often become involved with cult groups. In a particular experiment, he instructed confident, assertive people in his class to give wrong answers, which then led other students to doubt their own judgments. I've experienced this myself. Cults use these same tactics. When a cult speaker is teaching the doctrine of the group--some newcomers may doubt the ideas of the group. However, when the vast majority of cultists surrounding someone enthusiastically agree with the speaker--eventually many people will feel overwhelmed and submit to the group's way of thinking. Asch awesomely demonstrated this through his practical experiments. --how anyone can be vulnerable to the power of conformity within certain social situations despite their level of previous confidence and self-esteem. is this along the lines of what you are trying to communicate?froglahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285825751301910324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-54651874257587390222012-01-12T20:46:01.491-05:002012-01-12T20:46:01.491-05:00I don't think I've warranted what you wrot...I don't think I've warranted what you wrote above. (If you intended it to be hurtful -- you succeeded). I'm terribly sorry that you've taken it personally. To convince you that I'm not a total dimwit, you needn't do the whole "Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split ya" thing because I truly got the message this time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-13604387604548212302012-01-12T19:53:56.116-05:002012-01-12T19:53:56.116-05:00"If your mission is to make people think -- t...<em>"If your mission is to make people think -- then you are highly successful."</em><br /><br />Apparently not. If it were causing you to really think, you wouldn't say this...<br /><br /><em>"This statement is a reason why I am not making your connection between Jim Jones and Tebow."</em><br /><br />If you think the point of the post was to make a direct connection between <b>Jim Jones</b> and <b>Tim Tebow</b>, you either started <em>entirely</em> from the wrong premise, or missed the whole point altogether - or both.<br /><br />Jones, Tebow, and P/QF were just vehicles to make a MUCH larger point, as Tebow's been all along. All you want to focus on is Tebow in some little personal game of "gotcha!" you're trying to play with me.<br /><br />I'm starting to think I should type in sign language.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-26821198870386041762012-01-12T19:01:04.394-05:002012-01-12T19:01:04.394-05:00". .[I]have some suspicions about his [Tebow&...". .[I]have some suspicions about his [Tebow's]belief system . . ."<br /><br />I think if you re-read your posts (especially your comments about Tebow himself) that maybe the quote above doesn't sufficiently summarize the statements you've made about Tebow.<br /><br />"I see him as little more than an indoctrinated mouthpiece for movements influencing him (which include most of the movements in my blog description). He's just a kid doing what he's been indoctrinated to do."<br /><br />This statement is a reason why I am not making your connection between Jim Jones and Tebow. If this is your description of Tebow -- it simply can't be the same for Jim Jones. <br /><br />"These days, if you examine the evidence, attempt to use discernment, and you come to conclusions others don't agree with - you're judgmental." <br /><br />But to turn this around, that means that when I examine the evidence, attempt to use discernment and come to conclusions that you don't agree with -- then I'm a Sheeple of the Highest Order of the Christian Culture. <br /><br />The posts ARE about Tebow, he is not on the sidelines or a sidenote. (His name appears in the titles.) Your posts are absolutely founded on the premise that he was/is a product of the Christian Homeschool Movement, etc. If the cornerstone of your argument is Tebow and then you build your case on top of it-- it is simply reasonable that someone's gonna kick the cornerstone. <br /><br />If your mission is to make people think -- then you are highly successful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-84198830437644067362012-01-12T16:47:59.924-05:002012-01-12T16:47:59.924-05:00As an Australian, I don't know anything about ...As an Australian, I don't know anything about Tebow. However, us Aussies are quite good at idolizing sports people and turning a blind eye to their indiscretions regardless of their standing as a Christian/Muslim/etc.. I have seen this kind of mania over big names in the Hillsong Church, people really do believe if you write a song about Jesus you are as pure as the driven snow. *sigh*Liznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-59964415681506364442012-01-12T15:30:02.650-05:002012-01-12T15:30:02.650-05:00Well said, Jumpers. I'm glad you're findi...Well said, Jumpers. I'm glad you're finding healing.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-49075621644687330472012-01-12T15:10:55.916-05:002012-01-12T15:10:55.916-05:00The issue isn't whether or not people disagree...The issue isn't whether or not people disagree with me. The issue is taking something from the posts that the posts aren't about.<br /><br />With all of these Tebow-mania posts, Tebow's been a sidenote to the larger points - thought reform, propaganda, evangelical culture, et cetera...but most of the responses I get, here and elsewhere, are about Tebow.Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596138376570543467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-59441962604300052182012-01-12T13:48:13.728-05:002012-01-12T13:48:13.728-05:00Yes, yes, yes Lewis! What you are doing is alerti...Yes, yes, yes Lewis! What you are doing is alerting folk to watch the pot...to notice that the simmer is on its way to a full boil. Thank you for your ongoing gift of helping us and encouraging us to think-really think-about everything!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6879552692521649812.post-66221646651269877342012-01-12T12:21:33.710-05:002012-01-12T12:21:33.710-05:00I understand your points and I'm actually baff...I understand your points and I'm actually baffled as to why many do not. I do think Tebow could end up being dangerous, it just depends.Katy-Anne Binsteadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528465833214550644noreply@blogger.com